JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE
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@griselbrother said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
@13nova said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
Unfortunate that Outcome didn't go, but I think that's probably an okay thing. I think these are the right decisions. I might actually want to play Legacy, now.
Why do you think that's unfortunate?
My Problem with Outcome is the first Outcome just makes every other one that much better. You chain cards together in ways 4 Gush never did without Merchant Scroll. If the first outcome resolves for 3 or more, you probably just lose the game. I don't like cards that make additional copies THAT much better. The first one is essentially 0-1CC, draw 3+. The first is usually 0: Draw 5, add X blue, black, and or colorless to your mana pool.
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@stormanimagus @ChubbyRain
But there’s only two of them, and neither chains you into drawing 10 cards next time, chaining you into 20 cards (or whatever) while generating mana. The delve spells should absolutely be restricted because they play in every deck with TAP: Add U to your mana pool.Outcome, on the other hand, while not as pervasive among blue decks as Gush and Delve spells would be if unrestricted, is far more difficult to counterplay and far more likely to result in winning the game “on the spot” when resolved. Even if I get Stony Silence in play the Outcome still draws five or whatever cards (helping find a way to beat Stony Silence) where RiP makes it almost impossible to cast the Delve spells and still allows you time to find other ways to counterplay if they blow it up! To effectively stop Outcome from working you have to have Leo or Notion Thief resolve. To me it just seems way more degenerate than several of the restricted big draw spells.
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@wfain Or you just run a deck with Stony Silence, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia 1.0, AND Kambal and you watch your outcome opponent squirm to get rid of it all :). Then if they somehow find balance you just drop that 2nd Thalia you've been sandbagging the whole game. I have a deck that does exactly this to much success most games.
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@stormanimagus that’s what I’m saying, you can play 10 pieces and land 2 of them, you’ll win. But you’re not going to be good against anything else because the cards that are good against Outcome don’t really help against anyone else (Stony excepted since it is decent against Shops if you have some other relevant cards).
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@wfain said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
@stormanimagus that’s what I’m saying, you can play 10 pieces and land 2 of them, you’ll win. But you’re not going to be good against anything else because the cards that are good against Outcome don’t really help against anyone else (Stony excepted since it is decent against Shops if you have some other relevant cards).
Ummm. . . I respectfully disagree. Spirit of the Lab is a fine card vs. Xerox, and anything else that seeks to draw a bunch of cards. Thalia is great vs. any deck running 4 preordain (of which there are quite a few). Kambal is great vs. decks running removal because he is a meat shield to your other threats. These cards are absolutely FINE vs. other blue lists. And I'd run Kataki in the main for shops + Outcome just for the coup de gras.
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@stormanimagus yes, they’re fine against other decks that do less degenerate versions of what Outcome does (Xerox). But they don’t hamstring them. This is all beside the point anyways, my original point is that Outcome is way better than the restricted big draw spells (Gush and delve spells specifically).
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I think Outcome is fine and I don't think it should be restricted. Sure, it's very powerful but it's also very fragile. Both in the sense that there are a lot of tools to stop the card itself and in the sense that most builds have a high degree of variance.
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@griselbrother doesn’t feel like it when I play against them, but maybe you’re right.
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@griselbrother said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
I think Outcome is fine and I don't think it should be restricted. Sure, it's very powerful but it's also very fragile. Both in the sense that there are a lot of tools to stop the card itself and in the sense that most builds have a high degree of variance.
You should have seen some of the people who were doing well with it at SCG. My opponent didn't even fucking know to upkeep his Ancestral Recall.
Outcome is absurd - it's fucking Mind's Desire and shouldn't be a 4x.
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Outcome is the glue holding the Vintage format & metagame together.
Restrict it & the format goes back to the hot mess it was for the preceding 5 years. Restricting it is a terrible idea. Especially since it is do beatable and not remotely dominant.
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@smmenen for once, I agree with you Steve (first time for everything haha!). It is a deck that is eminently beatable and preys on the Shops decks that were bordering on too dominant about a year ago. Shops is still a great choice, but it does tend to struggle with PO decks because they now run 4 Hurkly's Recall.
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@smmenen “Demarcus Cousins is the glue holding the Warriors & NBA together. Stop him going & the league goes back to the hot mess it was for the preceding 5 years. Breaking that team up is a terrible idea. Especially since they are so beatable and not remotely dominant.”
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@13nova said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
@griselbrother said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
I think Outcome is fine and I don't think it should be restricted. Sure, it's very powerful but it's also very fragile. Both in the sense that there are a lot of tools to stop the card itself and in the sense that most builds have a high degree of variance.
You should have seen some of the people who were doing well with it at SCG. My opponent didn't even fucking know to upkeep his Ancestral Recall.
Outcome is absurd - it's fucking Mind's Desire and shouldn't be a 4x.
There's often talk about attracting new players to Vintage and in that regard Outcome could be good to the format. It's powerful, relatively easy to play and a lot of fun. I don't see how your opponent not playing Ancestral in upkeep is a testament that Outcome should be restricted.
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I'm amazed by some of the comments in this thread. There's no results that say Outcome is dominating Vintage by any means, and yet I can't help but feel that going by this thread it's going to be restricted anyway. I'm not sure I really want to play a format where public opinion on the internet is the deciding factor of what cards do and do not get restricted.
If Outcome's results are oppressive, by all means restrict it. Until then I don't see any cause for restrictions. We seem to be restricting multiple new cards every year. Are we trying to get the restricted list to stretch for a mile long? Is Vintage not the format where you get to play all cards ever printed or does it come with the qualifier "you get to play everything but every powerful card ever printed will get restricted until we are playing highlander"?
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@hrishi said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:
I'm amazed and disappointed by this thread. There's no results that say Outcome is dominating Vintage by any means, and yet I can't help but feel that going by this thread it's going to be restricted anyway. I'm not sure I really want to play a format where public opinion on the internet is the deciding factor of what cards do and do not get restricted.
If Outcome's results are oppressive, by all means restrict it. Until then I don't see any cause for restrictions. We seem to be restricting multiple new cards every year. Are we trying to get the restricted list to stretch for a mile long? Is Vintage not the format where you get to play all cards ever printed or does it come with the qualifier "you get to play everything but every powerful card ever printed will get restricted until we are playing highlander"?
This!
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@hrishi I'd say there's always an element of popular opinion. And it cuts both ways in keeping Shops unrestricted and Brainstorm legal in Legacy.
@Griselbrother It might be fun to play Paradoxical Outcome, but it's not particularly fun to sit there for 5 minutes or longer while the opponent executes a kill. In that regard, the card is poorly designed.
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@Griselbrother My issue with Outcome was stated so much better by Matt above (@ChubbyRain).
Again, my issue is that the card itself GROWS.
You have a Mana Crypt, a Mox Opal, and a Sensei's Top in play. The first outcome says "Draw 4 for 1 colorless mana".
If you draw a 2nd Outcome, even without any additional artifacts, the card now says "Draw 4 for 2 Colorless and 1 Blue".
Now compound that because usually the 1st outcome draws an artifact. In this case, the second outcome says, "draw 5 for 1 colorless and 1 blue".
And then every outcome after that basically says "draw 7 for 0 mana, and add 1URW to your mana pool" (Assuming Sapphire/Ruby/Pearl in this scenario.)
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Its always been about the court of public opinion. If we went purely on results, so many Vintage staples should be restricted, but they are given special status. That is the point that Matt is making. Cards like Force of Will, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, ect. are all given special treatment that prevent them from getting restricted.
Vintage should really just turn into highlander, and we don't have to ever have any of these discussions ever again. No subjectivity is introduced into these restrictions as everything would be restricted.
