PSA: Containment Priest isn’t good



  • @Brass-Man please delete this thread.
    It has clearly side-tracked into unnecessary non-sense.



  • Containment Priest has never been that good of dredge hate against a well prepared pilot, and the Loam/Portal/Pit combination was already seeing play before LSV.



  • @vaughnbros said in PSA: Containment Priest isn’t good:

    was already seeing play before LSV.

    I think the point there was LSV possibly popularizing it.



  • I think there's a good in-the-moment discussion to be had here about Containment Priest vs a Life From the Loam/Cabal Pit Dredge deck, but I think it behooves everyone to remember the the metagame changes, particularly the MTGO metagame, and very particularly Dredge hate. The Dredge/anti-Dredge dance seems to move faster than a lot of similar metagame cycles, for whatever reason, and it wouldn't be shocking to me to find the top Dredge players on something else by the time EW rolls around ... or for that matter, next week.

    I think it's a pretty great skill to be able to identify where we are in that cycle though, and I'm going to bet you're pretty dead-on at the moment.

    In defense of Containment Priest, a card I personally love 🙂 ... I just want to briefly sing it's praises regardless of Cabal Pit. I'm mostly a proponent of the idea that quantity > quality when it comes to Dredge hate. If possible you want both, but a lot of times you want that deck space for another matchup. Consider the deck that runs 4 Grafdigger's Cage against Oath and Dredge vs the deck that runs 2 Wear//Tear and 2 Rest in Peace. While Rest in Peace is dramatically better against Dredge than Grafdigger's Cage, my money's still on the deck with twice as many cards.

    Containment Priest takes this one step further by being the most versatile card you might call Dredge-hate (though you could argue there are some other more versatile non-"hate" "anti-Dredge" cards like Tinker). It's the least-bad Dredge-hate card in many non-Dredge matchups which means the cost for including it in your deck is lower. I've run maindeck Containment Priest in Mentor/Xerox decks before and I suspect I'll do it again. Even outside the Dredge and Oath matchups, I've found Containment Priest winning me lots of games on Ambush Viper duty ... as a Planeswalker-sniper, a surprise blocker, or just a clock during a stalemate. All of this means the card is not so bad maindeck, and 2-3 maindeck Containment Priest has a much bigger impact on the overall Dredge matchup than 1-2 sideboard Rest in Peace

    This all feels like it might be pretty obvious to a lot of players ... but I'd just say that I wouldn't count the card out as an option just because of the presence of Cabal Pit, if the next-best alternative is running less for the matchup overall. Versatile cards like Priest and Cage (and Crypt/Spellbomb in some metas, I like the card against storm decks) are a way of creating virtual slots in your deck, which could still be worth it, even if Priest is worse a the moment, the way @wfain predicts (and I think that prediction has merit).

    Of course skilled Dredge players know that this will always be true for cards like Priest and Cage, and never be true for cards like Rest in Peace ... which means they build their decks accordingly ... and the great wheel of the metagame rolls ever onward.



  • @5space Actually, even that is wrong. Sullivan Brophy was one of the first to popularize the Barbarian Ring tech which he's now moved over to being Cabal Pit (and 1 Ring). It irritates me to no end when players assign credit to deck tech to the latest "high status" player who played with the tech even if they clearly stole that tech from an originator of it. Don't always assume that the only players who use spicy tech are guys like LSV. This actually happened to me with Mike Noble essentially being given full credit for Noble Fish even though I was absolutely 100% the originator of the deck as people in the know will attest to.

    -Storm



  • @stormanimagus

    I played barbarian ring in MKM Rome 2015, several months before the first list using It was publicated.

    It's true that a person could use some tech that nobody use before, and they are never considered as the first user due to their list was never publicated.



  • My point wasn’t that LSV invented Cabal Pit.

    Honestly, who cares?

    I’ve come up with lots of cool decks and tech that end up being widely used but nobody knows who I am. It doesn’t matter in the slightest, either.

    The point is that, right now on MTGO the Dredgers I’ve seen have adopted the above stated package (with Darkblast too) following its use in team VSL. That fact, combined with the relatively low percentage of Oath at the moment leads me to the title of this thread- PSA: Containment Priest isnt good. Don’t play it expecting it to matter (unless all you need is one turn to establish Time Vault or Tendrils or whatever else to win on the spot). If you’re trying to play fair, you probably want something else.



  • @stormanimagus said in PSA: Containment Priest isn’t good:

    @5space Actually, even that is wrong. Sullivan Brophy was one of the first to popularize the Barbarian Ring tech which he's now moved over to being Cabal Pit (and 1 Ring). It irritates me to no end when players assign credit to deck tech to the latest "high status" player who played with the tech even if they clearly stole that tech from an originator of it. Don't always assume that the only players who use spicy tech are guys like LSV. This actually happened to me with Mike Noble essentially being given full credit for Noble Fish even though I was absolutely 100% the originator of the deck as people in the know will attest to.

    -Storm

    Sorry, I should clarify. I didn't mean that LSV should be credited with the tech to any degree, but that his status would popularize it (on a larger scale) by him simply playing it. Of course, this will probably lead some to attributing this tech with LSV. I'm aware of Brophy's and @vaughnbros' work and didn't mean to take any credit away from them.



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  • Containment Priest and Yixlid Jailer are fine. They are the reason I was playing 4 Barbarian Rings main deck in Dredge the past couple of months (including in the TVSL), because I was not interested in losing to the random decks that were playing a couple of main deck Priests. I think they are more valuable than Cabal Pit though if you are planning to cast cards like Ingot Chewer and/or Ancient Grudge, as they are essentially "on color" for your other anti-hate measures, which I found to be extremely relevant.

    Like most anti-Dredge cards though, they are not standalone answers. They just buy you time, much like Null Rod or Stony Silence do against artifact decks, before the enemy finds an answer. Your hate cards work best when you can protect them and simply buy time to do something else powerful to quickly wrap up the game.



  • I'd also like to call out that while I think @wfain is totally correct to expect an increase in Cabal Pit, I think if you're a Dredge player, taking cues from this season's VSL decks is probably a really risky idea. The VSL already comes with a set of rules that are different from vintage, which changes the value of cards. This season with its team requirements is the most dramatic version of this, and the Dredge decks that team Channel-Fireball played are the most dramatic example this season. The reasoning behind card choices in those decks just does not apply to the MTGO or Eternal Weekend metagames. Now Cabal Pit may, in fact, be good in vintage right now, but assuredly LSV was not thinking about whether or not it was when he decided to run it. The VSL, this season in particular, that Dredge deck in particular, just require a different kind of thinking.

    Another way to put it? LSV had a pretty good run with Outcome decks as well ... but I wouldn't take that as evidence that you should be running Sleight of Hand.



  • @jaco wrt being on-color and ring vs pit, I am a big fan of abrupt decay. pit is also on-color for maindeck cards too



  • @blindtherapy not to mention it is on color with Dakmor Salvage. That’s probably the most important aspect of it.



  • Containment Priest is not to be played alone. The vintage sideboard is a hard thing to build. You are trying to sure up against match ups without watering down your deck and this is very difficult in a format that is so often dependent of a small number of cards.

    I plan to use Containment Priest against Dredge but based on experience I never expect him to get there on his own. I almost always play 3 to 4 Tormod's Crypt with Containment Priest. This gives me an option against Jeskai and LandStill and even against Grixis. I believe that you need a multi-card strategy against Dredge with a mix of artifact, creature and enchantment. I often run 2 Priest and 2 Rest in Peace with the Tormod's Crypt if I'm on PO or Jeskai.

    If I'm on a deck with Black over White then I go to Leyline of the Void and Ravenous Trap with Tormod's Crypt and maybe Grafdigger's Cage.

    You really need 6 to 8 slots on the board against Dredge and Wasteland does not count.



  • @wfain yeah. i once won 3 games in 8 rounds of swiss with ring by going face and i still prefer pit now



  • LSV's decklist dredge list is fine. I'm just not quite so sure how him playing already existing dredge technology changes the format. Both Sullivan, and I, among dredge pilots, have already been playing these cards. Whether they see play I think would be more on their merit as actual good cards than just LSV playing them. As Brass points out, its not like people are going to start playing Sleight of Hand.

    Ive said it before, but its my belief that Containment Priest is no better than a tier 3 hate piece against a well prepared pilot. That is, Id place it alongside cards like Pithing Needle and Wasteland. There are just too many answers for Priest that are easily playable from the yard: Cabal Pit / Loam / Portal in this scenario, but cards like Crippling Fatigue and Vengeful Pharaoh are also very strong against it.



  • @vaughnbros of course it changes things. People saw it in action. They saw it work really well, even when played sub-optimally. That matters for adoption. Most players (and this is especially true of Vintage players) are slow to adopt new ideas until/unless they see really good results or the new idea is advocated by someone they respect. This is one of the most high profile vintage events in the world (as far as exposure is concerned) and LSV is one the 5-10 greatest players ever.

    How could it not change things?



  • @vaughnbros Priest is far and away NOT a tier 3 hate piece. You just need to supplement it with other soft/hard hate pieces that interact well with it (ie wasteland on dredge's mana sources + Thalia can stop them casting Abrupt Decay and Wastelands can also keep them off pit + black source to kill your priest). And yes, if this becomes the new normal you'll want some number of RIP, and stuff like DRS to actually exile cards from yard. Also, you'll want a good clock to back-up your Priests (in humans I use Mayor) to close the window quickly while you have them temporarily locked. All of these things in concert are what make Priest still acceptable. These are just my thoughts as someone with vast amounts of experience playing priest vs. dredge.



  • @wfain Because a number of Dredge pilots have already been playing it, or were already aware of it. Perhaps I underestimate the number of casual dredge players that are influenced by a VSL result, but I dont think that comprises a lot of the play that dredge sees.



  • @stormanimagus said in PSA: Containment Priest isn’t good:

    This actually happened to me with Mike Noble essentially being given full credit for Noble Fish even though I was absolutely 100% the originator of the deck as people in the know will attest to.

    Much love, Noah. I'm the 100% originator of a deck myself, but it too was much more successful in the hands of a better pilot. ❤

    @wfain Isn't that the reason we also had Ravenous Traps in Survival? If you're looking for hate cards against specific zones or card types, diversity will always help to sidestep the anti-hate.


 

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