Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop


  • TMD Supporter

    Possibly.

    I've found a record of Brian Kelly lobbying for it's unrestriction in 1996 and 1997.

    Check it out:

    Post 1: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy/gaOB0QoXsqc/W8mxbGt-zw8J

    Post 2: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy/yS5NKq1KpNY/d1qn6fId9yUJ

    Wow.

    @ Brian: You thought you could hide this from us, but even after twenty years, my sleuthing skills uncovered your misdeeds πŸ™‚

    I kid, but it is funny to think that you might have actually swayed DCI opinion in this ancient era, with long term unintended consequences that could hardly have been fully appreciated.



  • Blue Mages hate him!

    (In all seriousness, those threads were very interesting to read.)



  • It was me, though I doubt a random thread there had much impact on the decision it predated by ~3 years. There's also probably evidence of a 15-16 year old's entrepreneurial system of trading dual lands and power to Italians for gobs and gobs of their undervalued Italian Legends (Moat, Abyss, Nether Void, Tabernacle, Mana Drain), trading those in the states for more English cards, and repeating the cycle, putting together collections of P9 and things like 4 Libraries and 5 English Moats on a $1 a week allowance. πŸ˜„

    I don't think I've ever lobbied for restricting Mishra's Workshop in modern times. It is beloved too much by many (though certainly not all) and we haven't exhausted the "restrict around it" approach by any means. It's definitely time to "restrict around" Bazaar of Baghdad in the same fashion. πŸ˜‰



  • @brianpk80

    "GIVE IT UP. Fork will never be unrestricted in Type I. It is a COPY CARD.
    Repeat. It is a COPY CARD. There are just too many restricted Sorceries
    and Instants prevalent in Type I to make this a reasonable card to
    unrestrict."

    "First of all, unrestricting Fork would be a phenomenally bad idea. One
    is OK, beacuse it is a nice versatility card, but playing with more than
    that would be overkill. Just think about some of the more hellatious
    things to Fork: Wheel of Fortune, Time Twister, Braingeyser...yikes.
    By being allowed four Forks you are breaking the environment pretty
    badly, because you are essentially doubling the amount of a particular
    sorcery or instant in you deck. Instead of four Disenchants or Hymn to
    Tourachs, your now playing with eight, for example. Nasty..."



  • @vaughnbros said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80

    "GIVE IT UP. Fork will never be unrestricted in Type I. It is a COPY CARD.
    Repeat. It is a COPY CARD. There are just too many restricted Sorceries
    and Instants prevalent in Type I to make this a reasonable card to
    unrestrict."

    "First of all, unrestricting Fork would be a phenomenally bad idea. One
    is OK, beacuse it is a nice versatility card, but playing with more than
    that would be overkill. Just think about some of the more hellatious
    things to Fork: Wheel of Fortune, Time Twister, Braingeyser...yikes.
    By being allowed four Forks you are breaking the environment pretty
    badly, because you are essentially doubling the amount of a particular
    sorcery or instant in you deck. Instead of four Disenchants or Hymn to
    Tourachs, your now playing with eight, for example. Nasty..."

    This shows how far the Overton window has shifted, given I was the one arguing for unrestrictions while the community was squarely opposed to unrestricting locusts as dangerous as Fork, Ivory Tower, and Feldon's Cane. I'm sure if they could see this "zomg Paradoxical lol/tap Bazaar win lol" metagame right now, there would be fainting.



  • @brianpk80 what would restrict around Bazaar entail? Golgari Grave-Troll? Narcomoeba?



  • @brianpk80

    There has definitely been some shift, and these players would be shocked to come out of a time machine and see Vintage. However, I also think there are still quite a few cards that don't have any reason to be on the restricted list, and you still see people bring up responses like this.

    @wfain

    If you want to hurt, but not cripple dredge, Powder / Therapy / Dread Return are probably off limits. Narcomoeba is the one that hurts the deck significantly, but it could survive. Restricting actual Dredgers does very little to the deck unless you are hitting Troll AND Stinkweed.



  • @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80 what would restrict around Bazaar entail? Golgari Grave-Troll? Narcomoeba?

    Serum Powder, Hollow One, and GGT to start.

    Free one-sided draw 7's like Serum Powder are not cool, and 8 power for 0 makes Tinker look like a Theros rare. Without Powder, the deck would actually have to interact to find Bazaar a lot of the time, ie Crop Rotation, Vamp, and so forth. If this leads to less g1 blowouts, well... Mission Accomplished.


  • TMD Supporter

    @brianpk80 said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    It was me, though I doubt a random thread there had much impact on the decision it predated by ~3 years.

    No no Brian, we’re not letting you off that easy.

    Your second post was written in 1997, the same year that Mishra’s workshop was unrestricted!

    There was no three-year gap between your posts and the DCI’s decision. If anything your posts are the proximate cause.



  • @smmenen said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80 said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    It was me, though I doubt a random thread there had much impact on the decision it predated by ~3 years.

    No no Brian, we’re not letting you off that easy.

    Your second post was written in 1997, the same year that Mishra’s workshop was unrestricted!

    There was no three-year gap between your posts and the DCI’s decision. If anything your posts are the proximate cause.

    Perhaps I am that powerful. The first time I say something, it's "radical." A year later, it's mainstream. A year after that, it's policy. πŸ˜‰



  • Ban Uncle Istvan! Start the trend Bpk!



  • Do you still have this power and if so can you use it to do some real good? (Eg unban Shahrazad)

    πŸ™‚



  • @ribby second this



  • @ribby said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    Do you still have this power and if so can you use it to do some real good? (Eg unban Shahrazad)

    πŸ™‚

    I don't know. πŸ™‚ I did write them regarding Chalice of the Void, Gitaxian Probe, and Monastery Mentor. But I did not support the restriction of Lodestone Golem at that time and in that manner so there's that. I wrote them a few months ago about restricting around Workshops rather than restricting Workshop itself, and then Maro made that Tweet. Shahrazad can come off the banned list I suppose in a hostage exchange with Mentor, Trinisphere, and the format-ruining Delve spells. πŸ˜„



  • So much dredge restriction talk, and no mention of the actual culprit (Bridge From Below)



  • @13nova well probably because @brianpk80 is mad that his fair Standstill decks are bad against my Survival lists. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚



  • @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @13nova well probably because @brianpk80 is mad that his fair Standstill decks are bad against my Survival lists. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

    I'd imagine that's the only deck that's bad against Survival πŸ˜›



  • @13nova lol, you’d be very wrong. No fair deck is really favored against it. Shops is even at worst. Outcome and 10drills are the only matchups where I feel below 50% (which could be fixed if I gave up the dredge hate in the board).



  • @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @13nova well probably because @brianpk80 is mad that his fair Standstill decks are bad against my Survival lists. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

    Whoa there, cowgirl. πŸ˜‰ This is one problem with B&R talk, the accusation that people are only angling for their own interest in winning more. With all respect, it's embarrassingly untrue, as no one I know needs or wants a helping hand. The prime concern is enjoyment of the game. There are so many things in life to be doing, but Magic (and Vintage is the only real format) has been an incredible amount of fun since I came back in 2013. It now wanes with this post-Khans metagame that reversed the trend of increased attendance & enthusiasm; I'm disappointed to see that but fully appreciate why. Why would anyone want to invest that much effort driving to an event to concede Turn 1 to someone tapping a Bazaar, watch someone chain Paradoxicals with swooping hands moving their board up and down like Bernie Sanders at his most animated, or conceding to Shops on Turn 2.

    Shops and Paradox have gotten their deserved criticism but it's time to also add Dredge to that list, now that it does "lol Force ur Dredge hate" and "oh BTW here's 8 power for 0." The deck is bullshit and we've been Stockholm Syndromed by it far too long. Every time I play against it, I find myself fantasizing about buying extravagant new music equipment.



  • @13nova said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @13nova well probably because @brianpk80 is mad that his fair Standstill decks are bad against my Survival lists. πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

    I'd imagine that's the only deck that's bad against Survival πŸ˜›

    LOL, now that is quality trash talk. Survival Salad, or as it's perhaps better known, "Finessin', by the Hornet Queens" is a very strong deck. I advocated playing it in our VSL pod, but was overruled despite all of the testing we did yielding positive results.


 

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