@garbageaggro The exile effect from DRS is also huge vs. dredge and academy rector decks. That is a major reason for splashing green.

I have basically always found DRS to be too slow against dredge in game 1s, and haven't played against rector in my meta. But point taken. In those matchups it is also plausible to just play 1 savannah and no other green and just fetch it right?

Howdy, so I am working on a mostly WB version of the deck and I was vacillating on a couple things.

Here is the list with which I am starting :

My thought was that I could maybe get by with Karn over bob as the CA engine, which I think is better, but likely that means I would want to also run a different lock piece in place of stony silence in the main (namely damping sphere). I would also probably run 1 additional revoker at that point.
That may or may not be feasible against shops (read Ballista) any thoughts?

Hi all!

This saturday I took 2nd place at our yearly vintage tourament Hulen "The Cave" Open in Bømlo, Norway. I played a GWRB hate list and it worked so well that I decided to share it with you. This seems like the correct thread to post it in. The 13-man field looked like this:

3x oath, 2x dreadhorde arcanist, BUG Fish, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, Survival, Grixis Control, Paradoxical Outcome, Bomberman and myself.

My list was built to beat ravager and PO and tweaked to beat oath and dredge:

3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
2 taiga
1 bayou
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 elvish spirit guide

1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six
1 sylvan library
1 engineered plague

4 swords to plowshares
2 mental misstep
4 force of vigor

4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 collector ouphe
2 containment priest
4 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard:
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 bojuka bog
1 ghost quarter
1 forest
2 grafdiggers cage
2 lightning bolt
2 containment priest
2 stony silence
1 tireless tracker
1 dovin, hand of control
1 choke

We played 5 rounds of swiss into semifinals. I wont give much detail. I was drunk the entire tournament and hoped the deck would kinda pilot itself. It worked well until the finals. Anyhow, it went like this:

2-0 against white eldrazi: Very real games, the first game took 40 minutes. I ended up grinding him down. Wrenn and six was a house.

2-0 against paradoxical outcome: My deck is pure hate in this matchup and did its job. I am unsure if I controlled a monastery mentor with engineered plague. Maybe that was in a dream.

2-0 against oath: He resolved Griseldaddy. I had karakas.

2-0 against oath: I think I destroyed oath at least once with force of vigor. I drew containment priest in both games against oath, which make these matches less than representative.

1-2 against bug fish: The deck worked well. In both games I lost, he was down to 2-3 permanents, yet beat me with true-name nemesis.

Semifinals: I went in as first seed, one of the oath plyers came in at second, UR dreadhorde arcanist 3rd and bug fish 4th. The fish player conceded to me because he needed to be elsewhere, so I went straight to the finals.

Finals, against UR dreadhorde arcanist: This was the deck I feared the most in the field. I believe it is a bad matchup pre-board and knew he had blood moon in the sideboard (this was also the reason I put a forest in the side, which ultimately was a bad choice). We played a long game one, where he outplyed me, or I made a few stupid mistakes. I lost game to to turn one blood moon. Having the forest in play did not help.

The maindeck worked exceptionately well. Sideboard is a mess. Ill write a few comments on specific card choices in another post. Gotta go.

Comments on some of the card choices in the GWRB list above:

4 Force of vigor main: I went from 3 to 4 maindeck when I saw how good they are in the deck and after realizing they would be quite relevant in the field. Of the 12 other decks in the meta, they are only weak game 1 against dreadhorde arcanist and BUG fish. The UR arcanist deck I lost to in the final sides in blood moons, so I need to keep all 4 forces in against it. Playing the full playset means putting a premium on green cards in the deck, especially since collector ouphes come out in several match-ups.

4 collector ouphes main: As I mentioned before, I built the deck to beat ravager shops and PO. Against the field I met, 4 ouphe is probably not justified. It is a liability against oath of druids and weak against the "fair" decks. For green-based hate decks in general, I would think they are quite important, since it gives these decks a disruptive 2-drop beater on a power level close to that of Thalia, that pitches to force of vigor.

4 wrenn and six main: Speaking of two-drops that pitch to force of vigor, this card was pretty amazing. Most of the time, it was a functional ramunap excavator that was more resilient to removal. But the option of pinging any target once a round is very relevant. Against oath, it is importantly not a creature, which can build my manabase and/or weaken theirs whilst not activating oath. It can also pluck off spirit tokens after I have wasted their orchard. In the finals, I attacked Thalia into arcanist, bounced Thalia with Karakas after first-strike damage, then played wrenn and six to finish the arcanist off. I shaved a copy once, but never saw the need to cut any more of them. They were well worth the red splash.

4 knights of the reliquary main: This card is arguably too slow for vintage. If it gets to untap, however, it dominates the board. I think it is finally a good vintage card, because force of vigor slows games down to where it becomes effective. I am happy I played four. In the meta this Saturday, I would only side them out/shave copies against grixis control, PO and bomberman.

1 engineered plague main: When looking over sideboard plans against the expected field, I noticed that the engineered plague in the sideboard would come in against about half the field. Against other decks, it has marginal uses that make it decent to use game 1, such as naming "spirit" against oath or "monk" against PO. I was happy about running one in this tourney and will consider doing it again.

2 containment priest main: These are here because I expected 2-3 oath decks and one dredge deck in the meta. On the other hand, I had a hard time finding additional creatures to play. I considered green two-drops like Teeg, Scavenging Ooze and Pridemage and even going to 3 mana for big Thalia or Tireless Tracker. Ultimately, I decided to shy away from these weaker cards and play containment priests, since they are at least situationally powerful. Any ideas here are more than welcome.

Strong sideboard cards: 2 containment priest, 2 grafdiggers cage, 1 tabernacle, 2 stony silence.

Sideboard cards I am happy I ran, even though they could be something else: 1 bojuka bog (no dredge), 1 ghost quarter, 2 lightning bolt, 1 tireless tracker.

Sideborad cards I should not have played: 1 forest, 1 dovin, 1 choke. Choke is win-more with the waste package and wrenn and six. Dovin came in against blue decks, but would have been much stronger as a second sylvan library: Sylvan is cheaper, has a more powerful effect in these match-ups and pitches to force of vigor. The forest was me panicking five minutes before the tourney, when I heard one of the arcanist decks played blood moon in the side. The deck cannot realistically operate against a blood moon anyway, so any green card to pitch to force of vigor would be more effective than the stupid forest. In game two in the final, I had an open fetchland when he played moon turn one. I debated what to do, but went for the basic forest. By the time I had drawn a green card to pitch to force of vigor, he was able to force of will. Meanwhile, the basic forest did nothing.

I will happily respond to questions and/or criticism!

Hi guys!

I realize this thread is completely stale. Ill be happy to get feedback and this is a good place for organizing my thoughts in any case. A year ago, I took my GRWB hate-bear list to Hulen Open. It performed very well and I look to improve on the list for this years tournament.

Expected meta: Oath, 2x UR Arcanist, Jeskai Arcanist, Bug Delver, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, HollowVine, PO Storm, PO Mentor, Bomberman and 2x blue nonsense

My list still intends to beat PO and shops. I consider PO to be the top deck in our meta and this has a very favourable match-up against it:

3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
2 mox diamond

1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six

2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
4 once upon a time
4 force of vigor

4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 collector ouphe
3 dark confidant
3 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard:
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 deafening silence
1 swords to plowshares
2 veil of summer
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
4 containment priest
1 collector ouphe
2 plague engineer
1 leovold, emissary of trest

The maindeck runs fairly smoothly. Im happy with the double mox diamond, since coloured mana requirements are pretty steep. 3 abrupt decay in the main is an attempt to shore up the arcanist match-up, which I believe to be the least favourable in the meta. I also appreciate that it can kill mana when appropriate and that it brings my green-count in the main to 25, which is comfortable with 4 force of vigor.

Sideboarding is quite tricky. Whenever I anticipate taking out force of vigor, weaker maindeck cards, such as once upon a time, should go with it. This is my current plan:

Oath: -3 collector ouphe, -3 dark confidant, -3 deathrite shaman, -1 tabernacle (10) +4 containment priest, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares (9)

UR Arcanist (brings in blood moon): -3 collector ouphe, -1 knight of the reliquary, -1 Karakas (5) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library, +2 plague engineer (7)

Jeskai Arcanist: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -3 collector ouphe (11) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +1 deafening silence, +2 plague engineer (9)

Bug Delver: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -3 collector ouphe (11) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +2 plague engineer (8) Note: Not sure if I can take out force of vigor. Lacking bombs here. Choke could be good.

White Eldrazi: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -3 collector ouphe, -1 thalia (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +2 plague engineer (5)

Ravager Shops: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -2 thalia (4) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 collector ouphe, +2 plague engineer (5) Note: The fourth knight would be welcome here, over a plague engineer, for instance.

HollowVine: -3 collector ouphe, -3 abrupt decay, -1 mental misstep, -1 chalice of the void (8) +1 Tabernacle, +4 containment priest, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 plague engineer, +1 leovold (7) Note: Takes my green count to 20, which is problematic.

PO Storm: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

PO Mentor: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

Bomberman: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

A few notes:
-Sylvan library looks like it might belong in the maindeck as a one-of.
-Plague engineer looks like it is not pulling enough weight.
-I would like access to the fourth KotR in the side, against all the creature decks and oath.
-The second tabernacle in the side looks like its not worth it. If I gamble on not playing against actual dredge, I could play another piece that is decent against HollowVine that can also come in in other matches. Surgical extraction comes to mind.
-Similarly, containment priest is chosen as oath hate because it is among the best tools I have access to in case dredge shows up. If there is no dredge, I could consider controlling oath by blowing up oath and lands. A combination of 8 pieces of enchantment destruction and 2 surgical extraction to target the first destroyed oath could be plan a against oath. Plan B is to untap with KotR.

last edited by Recklessmbermage

Update on the list above

Expected meta is still: Oath, 2x UR Arcanist, Jeskai Arcanist, Bug Delver, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, HollowVine, PO Storm, PO Mentor, Bomberman and 2x blue nonsense

3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
2 mox diamond
1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six
2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
4 once upon a time
4 force of vigor
4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 collector ouphe
3 dark confidant
3 knight of the reliquary
Sideboard:
1 swords to plowshares (Comes in in 6 matchups)
2 surgical extraction (Comes in in 6 matchups)
2 pyroblast (Comes in in 7 matchups)
1 abrupt decay (Comes in in 8 matchups)
1 deafening silence (Comes in in 5 matchups)
1 sylvan library (Comes in in 7 matchups)
2 containment priest (Comes in in 1 matchup, assuming no dredge)
2 collector ouphe (Comes in in 4 matchups)
1 elvish reclaimer (Comes in in 6 matchups)
1 scavenging ooze (Comes in in 7 matchups)
1 plague engineer (Comes in in 5 matchups)

Maindeck changes after testing a fair bit against PO Storm and UR Delver, a little bit against other match-ups and thinking a fair bit: -1 collector ouphe, +1 mox ruby. I prefer having the seventh piece of zero-mana acceleration over the narrow hate card. I will consider taking out the ruby in some match-ups, where I would side out ouphe anyways. I think my PO match-up (where ouphe shines the most) is good. This brings my maindeck green-count to 24, which is still ok.

The sideboard has gone through several changes:
-I have tried 2 veil of summer, and found them to be a bad fit in the deck. I will often tap out to play my threats as early as possible, so keeping up green to protect them is not something I want to work too hard to accomplish. Pyroblast is untried still. It can be cast at sorcery speed, which I think is important. It also deals with planeswalkers.
-Against oath and PO, I will side out deathrite shamans and keep knight of the reliquary in, to have a real clock. That means Leovold had to go, because I have too few sources of blue once I side out deathrites.
-I have softened up and widened the dredge hate: Only 2 containment priest, 2 surgical extraction, 1 elvish reclaimer (for the single maindeck tabernacle) and a bonus scavenging ooze that is mainly there for bug and xerox decks, but can do work if the game against dredge goes long. These other cards have applications against a wider field and I dont think I have to rely on containment priest against oath: I just blow up the oath.
-There is still a plague engineer in the side: We have one elf-player that has been on shops the last few years. If he decides to go back to elves, that is a far worse match-up for me. I am also weary of true-name nemesis out of bug. But I consider dropping the last engineer.

In several match-ups where I intend to play force of vigor, I currently drop to 21-22 green cards. That is uncomfortable, and Im looking for moves to change it.

Updated sideboard plan:

Oath: -2 collector ouphe, -2 dark confidant, -3 deathrite shaman, -1 savannah, -1 tabernacle, -1 chalice (10) +2 containment priest, +2 surgical extraction, +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 elvish reclaimer (10) (22 green in library, minimum)

UR Arcanist (brings in blood moon): -2 collector ouphe, -1 Karakas, -1 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -1 mox ruby, -1 swords to plowshares (10) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 plague engineer, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 scavenging ooze, +2 surgical extraction, +1 deafening silence (10) (21 green in library, minimum)

Jeskai Arcanist: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe, -1 mox ruby (11) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 deafening silence, +1 plague engineer, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 swords to plowshares (10)

Bug Delver: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe (10) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +1 plague engineer, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +2 surgical extraction (10) Note: Not sure if I can take out force of vigor.

White Eldrazi: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -2 collector ouphe, -2 thalia (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 plague engineer, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 sylvan library (6) (26 green in library) Note: He may not bring in leylines. I should consider shaving force of vigors.

Ravager Shops: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -3 thalia, -1 abrupt decay (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +2 collector ouphe, +1 plague engineer, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 scavenging ooze (6) (27 green in library)

HollowVine: -2 collector ouphe, -3 abrupt decay, -1 mental misstep, -1 chalice of the void, -1 savannah (8) +2 containment priest, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 plague engineer, +2 surgical extraction (8) (21 green in library, below minimum)

PO Storm: -4 deathrite, -1 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah, -1 Tabernacle (8) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay (8) (23 green in library)

PO Mentor: -4 deathrite, -3 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (9) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay (9) (21 green in library, below minimum)

Bomberman: -1 deathrite, -4 wrenn and six, -2 swords to plowshares, -1 Karakas, -1 Taiga, -1 Tabernacle (10) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 abrupt decay, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze (10) (24 green in library)

@recklessmbermage

Thanks for the contribution.
Isn't Mox Diamond and Ouphe anti-synergy causing issues? I do understand how important it is to have more chance of having 2 mana on turn 1. And I love the synergy with Wrenn.

I have tested Deafening Silence a lot this past month and it is one of the strongest cards you can play against the heavy blue metagame. It actually acts as mana denial early on, and makes it hard for the opponent to quickly get rid of all your bears one by one while also developing their board and hand size.

The new Shepherd making all green spells uncounterable could be an interesting card in this list. Have you considered it?

Thanks for chiming in old friend!

Mox diamond can of course be a liability. It has performed very well though, probably because it plays well with all the cards in the deck that provide actual or virtual card advantage. Ouphe is straight up bad against several expected matches. I recently included mox ruby and moved one ouphe to the sideboard, mostly because ouphe has so high variance and secondly because Im at a point now where I have more artifact mana than half the field. When ouphe is good, I dont care that it shuts off my moxen, because it hurts my opponent so much more.

Deafening silence should be good! Since its only a one-off in the board (and cant be found with once upon a time), I have only played it a few times. I intend to side it in in all blue matches except oath, and expect it to slow the game down to where all my cards are business and a good deal of the opponents cards are air and I win. 🙂

Allosaurus Shepherd is interesting. I will consider it. The most typical play pattern against PO and UR delver (which are the match-ups I have played the most) is that I play a two-drop turn one, which gets countered. Turn two I play a second two drop, and if it doesn't get answered straight away I have a good chance of winning. Shepherd is interesting, because I can reproduce the same pattern without having to play so many moxen. Of course, I dont draw out force of wills when I play it, so non-green cards should be few and far between (Thalia always makes it, but maybe thats it). I dont think I have the time to test it for this summer, because it means reconfiguring the manabase (taking out moxen) to make room for it, and that requires quite a bit of testing.

The deck feels almost ready. I have to figure out what to do to increase my green count by 1-2 cards post sideboard in matchups where I want to keep all four force of vigors. Im debating playing a sylvan library in the main over the third confidant (I dont like it, but may do it. Sylvan in the main was good for me last year). The other consideration is to drop plague engineer in the side for a green card that gives board control or card advantage. Im considering the fourth knight, second ooze or second sylvan library. Suggestions are well received.

Nothing in the sideboard is sacred by the way. Particularly, non-green cards could be replaced.

It's cool that you keep on playing the deck! I don't play red in my builds so I can't comment on that inclusion, but Wrenn and Six seems like a big part of your strategy.

17 lands seems like too few to me. I would play 19 at least. I think that most builds with stuff like Wrenn and Knight of the Reliquary play even more. I'm also not a fan of Mox Diamond (especially with so few lands), although I see the synergy with Wrenn. If you really want a lot of acceleration, I would consider Elvish Spirit Guide, which is very good with Once Upon a Time.

last edited by Griselbrother

@griselbrother Thanks for the feedback!

There isn't little mana in the deck. I haven't seen other knight builds in a long time, but I guess they play fewer moxen than me if they play 19 lands. Where should I go to look at recent lists? I have been building these kinds of decks for many years now, and this one has been tested quite a bit (of course, only by me). In most matchups I side out 1-2 mana sources: I side out a mox whenever deathrite shaman is a fine turn one play and speed is less important (I do this against xerox decks, but not against shops, for instance), or 1-2 lands if I really need 2 mana turn one, but am not concerned about mana disruption from the opponent. The maindeck manabase is built both for speed and consistency (and once upon a time helps). At the moment I wouldn't consider adding land.

I have added and removed a single mox diamond to my builds a bunch of times: The diamond usually ends up being too cute. But in this particular build, the two of them have been gold: My mana requirements are quite steep, and the synergy with W6 is very strong. I will look at the possibility of shaving a diamond when I side out W6, if I think dropping to 6x turn one accelerators is ok.

And: Nothing wrong with elvish spirit guide. I played it over mox diamond a year ago. In this build, mox diamond performs way better. Of course, powering out collector ouphe with diamond seems completely silly, but if the opponent needs to get rid of it to advance his gameplan, im more than happy.

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