I wonder if this has some place in a red-based storm deck with rituals, Bonus Round and Past in Flames - possibly with Bazaars if cards in hand aren't important? Or some of the red effects that exile cards for you to play rather than put them in hand (Chandra).

Always nice to see a strange, clunky red enchatment in a set!

It works less than favoriable with Simian Spirit guide on the top. I "think" you can build a mono red beltcher with this as an engine and toss in 4 street wraiths toncycle the top, maybe faithless looting as well. Still eats it to countermagic or a sphere.

@serracollector said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

Assuming they have red Mana?

A deck with LoA and without red mana? I thought most blue decks in Vintage packed Volcanics and/or 3-4 Opal + Ruby/Lotus/Petal. Is the plan to spend 2 cards to give this to them and hope they won't draw their 5-11 red sources, specially when Frenzy and LoA help them?

last edited by fsecco

My initial reaction to even seeing this card being discussed in the forum was shock. I simply could not possibly see this card being 1) worth paying even a single mana for 2) it costs 4 mana and forbids you to play the other cards in your hand.

But I gave it some more thought, pondered a bunch of what ifs, I tried to understand how anyone could think this card is anything but bulk rare garbage.

Even if you chain off 3-4 cards in one turn for 4 mana, in the dream scenario, I still think this card is total and utter garbage.

The reason why isn’t necessarily obvious, but it has to do with the cards inability to hold back spells when you don’t want to play them, coupled with the opportunity cost of playing this card one turn and then spending a whole entire other turn destroying this card to play the card you want.

Any deck with force of Will would never want this card. Because it basically negates the draw entirely. Now you might say, only you know the top card and your opponent doesn’t. The reality of the situation is, if you are unable to play the top card of your library it becomes a singal to your opponent. Know they know then can simply pass the turn, draw a free card, be unpressured because you wasted 4 mana casting this card 2 turns ago, and be confidant that you have a counterspell, that if you are so inclined to cast becomes instant negative card advantage because you have to sacrifice this card first to cast the counter.

Storm wants nothing to do with a 4 mana spell that relies entirely on chaining off spells from the top of your library. Even with manipulation like brainstorm (restricted), ponder (restricted), preordain, and the best one for this card ancestral knowledge, you will still find yourself in more situations where you fizzle because the top of your library simply doesn’t do enough to get you across the finish line.

In an Agro creature list, you are wasting a turn playing not another agro creature and instead a potential do nothing enchantment that it is laughable.

What if your top card is a second copy of this piece of shit.

I hate this card. It is bad. It is bulk. I’m sorry, I tried to find reasons to play this card. It’s iust not good at all. I’m not sure it would even be playable at 1 single red mana. It would be playable in shops if it was an artifact and colorless. The Red makes it unplayable in any deck that would ever consider it.

last edited by gkraigher

Belcher resurgence? Eh? Could be better than a draw 7 😄

@gkraigher

I totally agree with you. This card id bad. It is worse than future sight, in a worst colour. And FS is not played.

Bulk rare

The only deck I could see this in, is Ubastax. You generally don't have cards in hand anyway and this would give you another card to go through your deck other than Bazaar.
However, this card needed to be an artifact in order to be even remotely considered.

This is depressing...

@gkraigher It also won't see play in Dredge of all formats, Legacy Miracles, Modern Bant Spirits, and Standard UW Control.

Do you want to list any more irrelevant decks that this card won't see play in?

@gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

Even if you chain off 3-4 cards in one turn for 4 mana, in the dream scenario, I still think this card is total and utter garbage.

In my dream scenario, the opponent dies immediately after I cast this card (well, after an excruciating long sequence of comboing off). Dream bigly and one day you might get your own Space Force.

@gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

I’m sorry, I tried to find reasons to play this card.

You didn't mention Sensei's Divining Top once, even when discussing manipulating the top of your library. That points to a pretty significant lack of effort as Sensei's Diving Top is the main reason to play this card.

@gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

What if your top card is a second copy of this piece of shit.
it.

Tap Top to draw 2nd copy. Replay Top. Continue.

@nsammael said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

This card id bad. It is worse than future sight, in a worst colour. And FS is not played.

Saturn created a PO variant that played Future Sight and PO. However, the problem was that Future Sight was incredibly difficult to cast in a deck running 4 Grim Monoliths and 4 Mishra's Workshop, which is why Saturn only ran 1 copy. This card opens up interesting design space in the list and I for one am going to explore this on Friday when the set hits MTGO (and I take my Neurology Clerkship).

"But PO and this is a nonbo." If you have PO and a bunch of artifact mana, do that instead. If not, play Frenzy and churn through your deck until you hit PO, then target the Frenzy with the PO so you can just go absolutely nuts and win. Frenzy significantly increases the bomb density of the deck and can likely replace some of the jank combos like Urza's Blueprints, Azor's Gateway, and Temporal Aperture.

"But this deck seems bad." Don't care. These decks are a blast to play. I have 300 dollars worth of entry fees on MTGO burning a hole in my account. If I don't win, boo hoo. And I honestly feel obligated to play this deck on principle now.

"But Frenzy still isn't going to be worth more than a bulk rare." PO is a bulk rare. You can get paper copies for 70 cents and digital copies for 3 cents. Price is a pretty poor metric for determining a card's "playability" in non-Standard, non-Modern format. And I think this card has some fringe value in Legacy Belcher as it breaks LED in half... But whatever. I am not a speculator and hate MTGFinance. I just want to play the game.

The flavor text on this card is pretty wild. Has a magic card ever referenced an earthly beverage before?

Is the coffee grown in the city?

last edited by desolutionist

@chubbyrain

Ok, sensei’s Top is solid with this card. I missed that one.

What kinda deck do you think it will open up?

I don’t see it being better than any card that currently sees play.

@gkraigher The hyperlink above is to Saturn's list which he had some success with several months back. It already runs 3 tops, 4 Helm of Awakenings and 1 Future Sight. I would tweak it to better abuse the Top engine, add 3 of these, and cut the chaff like Azor's Gateway and Urza's Blueprints. Frenzy + Top + Helm seems like a much better plan B to Paradoxical than the Artifact package.

Still think Future Sight/Magus is better since they pitch to Fow when they are dead cards and don't force you to go all in. You won't be able to play counters from your hand once you land this, making you extremely vulnerable to disruption or to "untap, GG" if you can't win in the same turn you deploy it. How good is the combo going to be when your top gets misstepped after you cast it from topdeck with this thing in play?

This card would have to be in a "balls to the wall" Defense grid kind of deck and its really not that great compared to the other options available for that kind of deck.
Note that it's exceptionally bad with Paradoxical outcome since you will be forced to bounce it if you want your PO to do anything and it's weak to the same disruption PO already suffers from (null rod/stony).
Ritual Storm has more than enough enablers that are either more efficient or more effective than this card.

So what kind of shell can you even play this in? Two card monte? Belcher?

I would be the first person to be excited if anyone manages to design a viable deck around this, but I just don't see it happening from a realistic point of view.

last edited by Macdeath

@desolutionist said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

The flavor text on this card is pretty wild. Has a magic card ever referenced an earthly beverage before?

Is the coffee grown in the city?

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/en/grn/68.jpg?1536158850

Tell me that isn't coffee.

@macdeath

Ritual/Storm lists also run demonic tutor and the 5 mana spell mastery tutor (whose name is currently escaping me), all tutors to your hand are instantly negated by this card.

I suppose mystical tutor/personal tutor and other effects become better. But in a vacuum those types of cards are much worse alone.

@gkraigher
I would definitely not run this in a dark ritual deck since there are just so many options that are more consistent and less all-in than this card:
-5x Restricted Draw7s (Memory Jar, Tinker, Wheel of fortune, Windfall and Timetwister)
-2x Restricted umph brokeness (Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Will)
-5x 1 life for 1 card (Necropotence and 4 Yawgmoth's Bargain)
-7x any card tutor (4 Dark Petition, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal)
-4x Oath of druids
-4x Ad Nauseam
-4x Paradoxical Outcome
-4x Doomsday

That's 35 cards (just off the top of my head) that are all light years ahead of Experimental Frenzy as enablers for a storm combo deck.

E Frenzy can only be good with the sensei combo or a deck like belcher (and even then i'm not convinced that it is better for belcher than playing the full suite of draw sevens and/or outcomes).

@macdeath But what if you're not running Force...like the Saturn list I linked to.

@chubbyrain
Then why sacrifice your ability to interact for a 3 card combo when you have so many other more efficient/consistent/resilient ways to win? And the combo doesn't get around counterspells, spheres or null rod? Doesn't that just loose to basically anything?

The main advantage of the Sensei + Helm + Future sight combo is that each card is individually good and they have inner synergies between them without assembling the combo.
In contrast, you definitely don't want to be casting Frenzy on its own and are still gambling if you have only one of the other pieces.

Maybe I'm over estimating how much this card is harmful when you can't close the game on the spot or underestimating the ease of which it is to resolve this card and win in the same turn.
There are just so many ways that this card can go wrong (misstep your top once you have Frenzy on board, instant speed artifact removal, one shot you if you pass without winning, drop a lock piece after you passed without winning...) It seems about as risky as Doomsday and requires the same (if not more) setup to produce a win.

EDIT: Just looked at the decklist you linked, having a hard time seeing a deck like that being viable even with an open mind (especially if it was part of the metagame). A one time 5-1 result is definitely not credible evidence to say anything about that list. I don't know you but it's hard to take a list seriously when you see stuff like Temporal aperture, Azor's Gateway, Paradox Engine and Urza's Blueprint with non existent protection/interaction.

last edited by Macdeath

@macdeath

Agreed on temporal aperature and not taking a list that went 5-1 once seriously. Sure temporal aperature could win you every single game in a lucky series of events, but over time, it’s simply an unplayable high variance card that isn’t worth the time to play. It’s not a real strategy.

I also agree that draw sevens are strictly better than this card.

last edited by gkraigher

@Macdeath @gkraigher you guys clearly never played the deck. Temporal Aperture + Paradox Engine is pretty much game over. It's clunky, and I agree that if Frenzy works well in the deck it'd be much better, but Aperture doesn't play out the way you guys are saying it does.

@ChubbyRain I was also thinking of Aperture Science when I saw this card. Seems like one of the best places to try it out, exactly because it's a deck without permission and because it has PO to pick Frenzy once you're done with it. I also cut Future Sight from that list because it was nearly impossible to cast. Tweaking the manabase to add a red splash is pretty simple though. You need only 1-2 Volcs.

last edited by fsecco
  • 70
    Posts
  • 25383
    Views