@gkraigher Are you talking about Expiremental Frenzy because if so there are many differences between legacy and vintage that make it quite a bit better. Also the abundance of Grafdiggers Cage never seems to stop Oath or Dredge decks.
@moorebrother1 I do not really see the use in that. Do you mind explaining it to me please.
@rat3de There is a 2 card combo with Saheeli Rai and Felidar Guardian. This combo is querky but I did run it in my Saheeli Rai/Sun Titan Oath post board. With Experimental Frenzy Saheeli allows you to scry away card that block your plan and Felidar Guardian gives you a combo kill that wins that turn.
Just a thought. I may play around with it for fun.
@moorebrother1 I mean if you like the combo and want to play, then I am all for! If you are having fun, go ahead, but if you are trying to brew a viable (not necessarily competitive) deck then I think it may be too clunky and disruptable to work. Then again you are using Experimental Frenzy, so viability is probably not your primary concern.
@rat3de i'm not even going to argue the fact that dredge and oath are way better strategies to win and they made a deck/archetype by themselves.... cage was there to fight them, to stop them.
You said cage didnt made those decks disapear.... they are still around... well, maybe because they had to fight cage back? they fought it back with decays ingots etc...
How is frenzy going to fight cage back? With the shatter in your hand? Or the one in the top of your library? Hmmmm.... just curious.
I’ll post my current list when I get home but I can honestly say cage has been a nonissue in 30 matches. Part of that is my opponents aren’t aware of the interaction. Part of it is I side out some Frenzies in SB games for Karns, similar to Oath decks. Part of it is Frenzy is only a part of the game plan and it does not interact against po. And the number 1 cage deck is shops, which you bring in hurkyls against and try to kill them in a 1 turn window. Cage doesn’t disrupt this game plan.
@rat3de I for one think Lim-Dul's Vault is too color intensive. For 2 colorless mana you can play an spin Top, or spin Top twice if it's in play, which seems a better use for me. Also, Top interacts very well with Frenzy since you can tap it and pay 1 to get rid of a blank. So unless you're already playing 4 Top and want 1 more, I wouldn't touch Vault.
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Experimental Frenzy
4 Paradoxical Outcome
Assembling this allows you to play out your deck. With Helm of Awakening, Top costs 0 and you can play it from the top of your deck with Frenzy. Cast the cards you can cast, draw the cards you can't cast, and then either PO Frenzy to your hand or sacrifice it the way Maro intended.
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
Compact package. Timetwister lets you shuffle Reservoir back in if it gets countered while giving you a bomb to cast in your opening hand.
4 Defense Grid
2 Chain of Vapor
Grid protects your combo turns while Chain bounces Kambal, Rod, etc. Oh, and Frenzy. And Moxen.
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
Pretty self-explanatory. @Rat3dE I don't want a double colored spell in this deck.
Rich is in the 2-2 bracket right now on stream. He just lost to maindeck turn 1 Kambal, which is about where the MTGO metagame is right now...
@fsecco I understand how the deck works (even golfished it for a couple games to educate myself). However it's just extremely inefficient in comparison to several combos that are already unplayable in vintage.
Also that deck is just that: something you goldfish. Try to play that in a real game against any viable Vintage deck and see how good it does...
That deck gets foiled by so many commonly played cards it's not even funny and is literally unable to interact MD (seriously, not even Defense Grid which would be the only reason to play that deck in the first place).
It's Basically a Glass canon version of outcome to gain half a turn in terms of average speed. You get something with a similar speed to a DPS/Bargain deck but with a resiliency similar to a belcher deck.
So play it in a Belcher deck maybe? Card seems a decent way to instantly restart the combo when you've blown your hand and got stopped somehow. So in a weird way reducing the glass-cannon-ness of Belcher.
I use to build decks not for competitive play but just to see how high turn1 win % i can get undisrupted. Just goldfishing and if i cant win turn 1 i start over. I have an artifact heavy build of frenzy that shows some promise in that regard. It plays belcher and Krark-Clan Ironworks as well as helm-top-grapeshot. Chromatic star, grim monolith, 1 workshop and crop rotation with 4 land grant and 2 taigas. Lots of fun goldfishing, but still mostly a turn 2 deck, will see how it goes.
@peach I'm taking a bit of a break from vintage with Cube season on MTGO in full swing. The more I've played with the card though, the more I think there is a middle-of-the-road variant out there that runs force of will and is less all in on the combo. Is passing with Force of Will on top of your deck bad? Is using Top to set up lines several turns away bad? There is more subtlety with the card than was first apparent. It should be interesting to explore.