[GRN] Experimental Frenzy



  • This is depressing...

    @gkraigher It also won't see play in Dredge of all formats, Legacy Miracles, Modern Bant Spirits, and Standard UW Control.

    Do you want to list any more irrelevant decks that this card won't see play in?

    @gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    Even if you chain off 3-4 cards in one turn for 4 mana, in the dream scenario, I still think this card is total and utter garbage.

    In my dream scenario, the opponent dies immediately after I cast this card (well, after an excruciating long sequence of comboing off). Dream bigly and one day you might get your own Space Force.

    @gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    I’m sorry, I tried to find reasons to play this card.

    You didn't mention Sensei's Divining Top once, even when discussing manipulating the top of your library. That points to a pretty significant lack of effort as Sensei's Diving Top is the main reason to play this card.

    @gkraigher said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    What if your top card is a second copy of this piece of shit.
    it.

    Tap Top to draw 2nd copy. Replay Top. Continue.

    @nsammael said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    This card id bad. It is worse than future sight, in a worst colour. And FS is not played.

    Saturn created a PO variant that played Future Sight and PO. However, the problem was that Future Sight was incredibly difficult to cast in a deck running 4 Grim Monoliths and 4 Mishra's Workshop, which is why Saturn only ran 1 copy. This card opens up interesting design space in the list and I for one am going to explore this on Friday when the set hits MTGO (and I take my Neurology Clerkship).

    "But PO and this is a nonbo." If you have PO and a bunch of artifact mana, do that instead. If not, play Frenzy and churn through your deck until you hit PO, then target the Frenzy with the PO so you can just go absolutely nuts and win. Frenzy significantly increases the bomb density of the deck and can likely replace some of the jank combos like Urza's Blueprints, Azor's Gateway, and Temporal Aperture.

    "But this deck seems bad." Don't care. These decks are a blast to play. I have 300 dollars worth of entry fees on MTGO burning a hole in my account. If I don't win, boo hoo. And I honestly feel obligated to play this deck on principle now.

    "But Frenzy still isn't going to be worth more than a bulk rare." PO is a bulk rare. You can get paper copies for 70 cents and digital copies for 3 cents. Price is a pretty poor metric for determining a card's "playability" in non-Standard, non-Modern format. And I think this card has some fringe value in Legacy Belcher as it breaks LED in half... But whatever. I am not a speculator and hate MTGFinance. I just want to play the game.


  • TMD Supporter

    The flavor text on this card is pretty wild. Has a magic card ever referenced an earthly beverage before?

    Is the coffee grown in the city?



  • @chubbyrain

    Ok, sensei’s Top is solid with this card. I missed that one.

    What kinda deck do you think it will open up?

    I don’t see it being better than any card that currently sees play.



  • @gkraigher The hyperlink above is to Saturn's list which he had some success with several months back. It already runs 3 tops, 4 Helm of Awakenings and 1 Future Sight. I would tweak it to better abuse the Top engine, add 3 of these, and cut the chaff like Azor's Gateway and Urza's Blueprints. Frenzy + Top + Helm seems like a much better plan B to Paradoxical than the Artifact package.



  • Still think Future Sight/Magus is better since they pitch to Fow when they are dead cards and don't force you to go all in. You won't be able to play counters from your hand once you land this, making you extremely vulnerable to disruption or to "untap, GG" if you can't win in the same turn you deploy it. How good is the combo going to be when your top gets misstepped after you cast it from topdeck with this thing in play?

    This card would have to be in a "balls to the wall" Defense grid kind of deck and its really not that great compared to the other options available for that kind of deck.
    Note that it's exceptionally bad with Paradoxical outcome since you will be forced to bounce it if you want your PO to do anything and it's weak to the same disruption PO already suffers from (null rod/stony).
    Ritual Storm has more than enough enablers that are either more efficient or more effective than this card.

    So what kind of shell can you even play this in? Two card monte? Belcher?

    I would be the first person to be excited if anyone manages to design a viable deck around this, but I just don't see it happening from a realistic point of view.


  • TMD Supporter

    @desolutionist said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    The flavor text on this card is pretty wild. Has a magic card ever referenced an earthly beverage before?

    Is the coffee grown in the city?

    https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/en/grn/68.jpg?1536158850

    Tell me that isn't coffee.



  • @macdeath

    Ritual/Storm lists also run demonic tutor and the 5 mana spell mastery tutor (whose name is currently escaping me), all tutors to your hand are instantly negated by this card.

    I suppose mystical tutor/personal tutor and other effects become better. But in a vacuum those types of cards are much worse alone.



  • @gkraigher
    I would definitely not run this in a dark ritual deck since there are just so many options that are more consistent and less all-in than this card:
    -5x Restricted Draw7s (Memory Jar, Tinker, Wheel of fortune, Windfall and Timetwister)
    -2x Restricted umph brokeness (Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Will)
    -5x 1 life for 1 card (Necropotence and 4 Yawgmoth's Bargain)
    -7x any card tutor (4 Dark Petition, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal)
    -4x Oath of druids
    -4x Ad Nauseam
    -4x Paradoxical Outcome
    -4x Doomsday

    That's 35 cards (just off the top of my head) that are all light years ahead of Experimental Frenzy as enablers for a storm combo deck.

    E Frenzy can only be good with the sensei combo or a deck like belcher (and even then i'm not convinced that it is better for belcher than playing the full suite of draw sevens and/or outcomes).



  • @macdeath But what if you're not running Force...like the Saturn list I linked to.



  • @chubbyrain
    Then why sacrifice your ability to interact for a 3 card combo when you have so many other more efficient/consistent/resilient ways to win? And the combo doesn't get around counterspells, spheres or null rod? Doesn't that just loose to basically anything?

    The main advantage of the Sensei + Helm + Future sight combo is that each card is individually good and they have inner synergies between them without assembling the combo.
    In contrast, you definitely don't want to be casting Frenzy on its own and are still gambling if you have only one of the other pieces.

    Maybe I'm over estimating how much this card is harmful when you can't close the game on the spot or underestimating the ease of which it is to resolve this card and win in the same turn.
    There are just so many ways that this card can go wrong (misstep your top once you have Frenzy on board, instant speed artifact removal, one shot you if you pass without winning, drop a lock piece after you passed without winning...) It seems about as risky as Doomsday and requires the same (if not more) setup to produce a win.

    EDIT: Just looked at the decklist you linked, having a hard time seeing a deck like that being viable even with an open mind (especially if it was part of the metagame). A one time 5-1 result is definitely not credible evidence to say anything about that list. I don't know you but it's hard to take a list seriously when you see stuff like Temporal aperture, Azor's Gateway, Paradox Engine and Urza's Blueprint with non existent protection/interaction.



  • @macdeath

    Agreed on temporal aperature and not taking a list that went 5-1 once seriously. Sure temporal aperature could win you every single game in a lucky series of events, but over time, it’s simply an unplayable high variance card that isn’t worth the time to play. It’s not a real strategy.

    I also agree that draw sevens are strictly better than this card.



  • @Macdeath @gkraigher you guys clearly never played the deck. Temporal Aperture + Paradox Engine is pretty much game over. It's clunky, and I agree that if Frenzy works well in the deck it'd be much better, but Aperture doesn't play out the way you guys are saying it does.

    @ChubbyRain I was also thinking of Aperture Science when I saw this card. Seems like one of the best places to try it out, exactly because it's a deck without permission and because it has PO to pick Frenzy once you're done with it. I also cut Future Sight from that list because it was nearly impossible to cast. Tweaking the manabase to add a red splash is pretty simple though. You need only 1-2 Volcs.



  • @chubbyrain I've been goldfishing with the list (4 Frenzy) and it's pretty fast. You need 4 Tops and maybe even 1 Scroll Rack. Took out Workshops for Ancient Tombs and it's been working pretty great. You always have the PO or mana to get rid of Frenzy if you need, but Top + Frenzy pretty much gets the job done.



  • @fsecco Agreed. I have a couple of versions lined up for Friday, but I think it gives the more combo centric versions of PO an added dimension. Well designed and interesting card, IMO.



  • @fsecco I understand how the deck works (even golfished it for a couple games to educate myself). However it's just extremely inefficient in comparison to several combos that are already unplayable in vintage.
    Also that deck is just that: something you goldfish. Try to play that in a real game against any viable Vintage deck and see how good it does...
    That deck gets foiled by so many commonly played cards it's not even funny and is literally unable to interact MD (seriously, not even Defense Grid which would be the only reason to play that deck in the first place).
    It's Basically a Glass canon version of outcome to gain half a turn in terms of average speed. You get something with a similar speed to a DPS/Bargain deck but with a resiliency similar to a belcher deck.

    This card doesn't fill any role better than anything that already exists could and it certainly does not help you in games where you face elements that are heavily disruptive to your primary game plan (null rod or Arcane lab effects).

    There are already so many better ways to give a Po deck additional lines of attack that shore Po's inherent weaknesses if that's what you are trying to do. That deck or the Frenzy card don't really have anything to contribute to the PO archetype in the long term. Sure this card is broken, enables fast wins and is a ton of fun but that doesn't make it optimal or even viable.

    The best performing Po decks are not (and have never been) the most broken ones, but rather the ones that can win even when facing multiple hate pieces. There is an equilibrium in a combo deck between resiliency, consistency and speed.



  • @macdeath I think what you fail to understand is that neither @fsecco and I are trying to break the Vintage metagame. If that happens accidentally, great, but that's really not how brewing is done (at least in my case). It's the process of taking a card or idea and building around it. Too many players get caught up in evaluating a cards "playability" and fail to actually take it a step forward and build a deck. It leads to idiotic rants where cards get labelled "total and utter garbage" or "piece of shit". So I get that you are skeptical of the card. Great, so am I. I think it's a niche card with applicability in a niche deck. Like Belcher, Baral, and many other cards that have seen Vintage play from time to time. That isn't going to stop me from experimenting with it.



  • @chubbyrain That's exactly it, Matt. Magic is supposed to be fun too. No need to be all Spikey every time. Future Sight is my favorite Magic card. Are you telling me that there's a new, easier to cast version of it and I'm not gonna test it? Come on.

    Also, Lion's Eye Diamond feels great with Frenzy and Top so you have the mana to cast stuff. I don't know if it makes the cut, because you will eventually get rid of Frenzy and it's good to have stuff on your hand, but LED does help a lot.



  • @chubbyrain said in [GRN] Experimental Frenzy:

    @macdeath I think what you fail to understand is that neither @fsecco and I are trying to break the Vintage metagame. If that happens accidentally, great, but that's really not how brewing is done (at least in my case). It's the process of taking a card or idea and building around it. Too many players get caught up in evaluating a cards "playability" and fail to actually take it a step forward and build a deck. It leads to idiotic rants where cards get labelled "total and utter garbage" or "piece of shit". So I get that you are skeptical of the card. Great, so am I. I think it's a niche card with applicability in a niche deck. Like Belcher, Baral, and many other cards that have seen Vintage play from time to time. That isn't going to stop me from experimenting with it.

    Fair enough. This is a narrative I can get behind.

    To wrap up the point I was trying to make: this card definitely has some potential in terms of raw power, I just don't think it helps a PO deck address it's structural weaknesses but rather emphasizes them. It's kind of like those Po lists that play expedition map and more broken cards, you can push outcome to a whole new level of speed and brokenness, but you just end up losing so much resiliency in the process.
    Which is why the best outcome decks (at least in my opinion) are the less artifact intensive, with a strong basic land mana base, control elements and alternate win cons that are unaffected or less affected by the hate that shuts off the outcome engine (I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about this as well).

    I will acknowledge however that this card is very interesting (and fun) to brew lists around. I expect a few people to put up some solid results immediately after release of the card and/or if/when the metagame is not sufficiently prepared for outcome (or in a favorable set of circumstances).

    I could potentially see this exacerbating the existing metagame tensions around PO where the format devolves into play Po, play a deck that is designed to beat PO or play a deck that has a decent matchup against po and consistently beats the deck that prey on Po just like Gush and Lodestone were. Let's just hope it doesn't come to that though.



  • You aren't wrong. I just played against 5 null rod decks in a row with a standard Xerox-PO hybrid and ended up 4-1. There is definitely value in having a high land count with the cantrips to find mana and answers, and the deck basically plays all the mistakes from the past 4 years.

    That said, I think you are discounting the effect of this card if you can resolve it. If your deck is mostly artifacts, you end up churning through it 3-4 cards at a time to find an answer, also hitting lands and POs for when you combo off. My favorite answer is Chain of Vapor as you can point one copy at Frenzy, then copy it to hit Rod, then probably win the game with that one PO you drew on a turn where you "bricked". Is it optimal? Probably not. But I'm not sure you considered that aspect of the card.



  • @chubbyrain I also thought of Chain of Vapor as the best answer to Null Rod / Stony Silence, but I wonder if packing something like Disenchant isn't good. Maybe even a split between the two, just for the Misstep. Once you get rid of the Null Rod, that 1 mana difference is not going to matter for you to win.


 

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