@grizzly said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
I'd recommend you going further into these control decks, as I don't think Gifts outshines PO in combo builds, but very well does put up some real value.
As for Intuition, I'd probably go for Ancestral Knowlegde.
Yea, i am into control and value more than build-a-bear workshop. I have been playing Paradoxical Oath with Grisels for a while.
Color me stupid, but what on earth is the interaction between Intuition and Ancestral Knowledge?
@tittliewinks22 said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
Been toying with gifts builds myself recently. Especially with the new Guilds of zravnica card Mission Briefing.
There are things to like about Briefing over Snapcaster, but for what Vintage-related purpose do you prefer to surveil? This isn't a format of Surgicals and Deathrites (and nor is Legacy on the latter anymore) so i wouldn't think the self mill is helpful? If anything, technically Mission briefing gets hit by one more sphere effect.
@blindtherapy said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
just wanted to mention that Intuition for 3x Creeping Chill is probably the best burn spell ever printed, with the possible exception of Price of Progress
Well that's hilarious. But then you have to play a card that's bad to draw. Some kind of Dredge/Loam/Intuition deck? A Lands deck that plays a burn spell??
@brass-man said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
I've put some work into Gifts a handful of times over the past few years. I never found a list that worked for me, but I'll throw out some of my thoughts on the card, which might be useful to you
Definitely! Thanks for some good thoughts here.
- The cheapest deterministic Gifts kill with no additional requirements is Time Vault/Voltaic Key/Argivian Find/Reconstruction which clocks in at 6 mana post-Gifts. I don't know if I'm into this because of how much worse it is to naturally draw Find/Reconstruction than the cards that other kills use.
Right, i don't think you do that. I think you build a different pile or only search up one of Vault Key, but on the other hand i suppose if you search one your opponent just presumes you have the other? Big risk in trying to a call a bluff there.
Also, i know you don't like Noxious (which i write about more below), but you can use Noxious in that pile if you don't need your draw step and it costs 1 less mana. Gifts is insane because you go +1 card but even with Noxious putting your target on top instead of in your hand (like Vamp bs Demonic) still just makes Gifts card neutral.
Regarding recoup, isn't this card only flexible in Tinker/Time Walk/Will based kill piles? It doesn't seem like a good card in any other case, because it cannot get you back other card types and it's painfully slow to recoup on value based piles that don't effectively win?
The Eot Gifts is why i really like Noxious for a combo win. The fact that it's an instant allows you to cast it before your draw step, like vampiric, but unlike vampiric is free to cast. You cast Noxious targeting one of the cards you would want with Vampiric, no? Vampiric just saves you from graveyard removal like Trap and Crypt?
In your example above, what if you are given Voltaic Key and Mystical? Mystical cannot find Vault and it cannot find DT if you already put it in your grave. You could Mystical with key in hand for Yawgmoth's, and then Yawg your DT into a Key, but builds like this are also possible with Noxious.
I'm not specifically saying this is good or not but as an example what about 1 of Key/Vault, Demonic, Vampiric, Noxious
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was particularly interesting to me, with its mana-free recursion. With a JVP in play, you gifts for Dark Ritual+Cabal Ritual+Demonic Tutor+Dark Petition and kill for only 1 mana post-gifts, with no specific requirements about what cards you've drawn already besides having threshold for Cabal Rit, which isn't super hard to have after you've resolved Gifts and activated JVP. (it's a complicated kill, but it works)
What do you grab with the tutor? If your opponent gives you the mana spells, Jace still only allows you to cast one tutor from the yard. This pile does depend on what's in your hand if i'm not mistaken?
- People who didn't play Gifts years ago pretty universally look at old lists and replace the Recoup with something cheaper, like Noxious Revival. I think largely people are missing the benefit of the recursion spell itself having flashback. To find a specific card with Revival, your gifts needs to include that target card, and Revival, and a second recursion spell like Snapcaster Mage, leaving you one slot to play with. Because Recoup works from the yard, you only need to get the target card and Recoup, which frees up a second slot that could be used for anything. When you're setting up a Yawgmoth's Will turn, that extra card can be huge. Recoup costs 2 more mana than Snapcaster Mage, and 4 more than Noxious Revival, but if it lets you put a Black Lotus in the pile, you're getting 6 extra mana on your Will turn. All of that said, I still think it's reasonable for a Gifts deck built today to just run 4 Snapcasters maindeck and plan on drawing one naturally rather than putting them in a Gifts pile, and skip the Recoup entirely ... but I'm not personally a fan of Noxious Revival.
I think the flashback is awesome, but are we planning on the idea Recoup will be put into our hand? I feel like with powerful spells recoup goes to the yard so we can't use it twice. Keep in mind the spells in the yard won't only be Gifts resolving but also the natural course of the game, so any number of things could be in there. I do get the value of putting Recoup into the yard, because then we get 2 cards to hand plus we can recoup a 3rd, which is way different than just getting 2 spells. The flashback is everything vs another recursion spell.
Is the loss in flexibility worth it? Doesn't it more or less put you into certain types of piles which makes you build your deck a little differently?
I'm not sold that Noxious is infallible or eminently playable, but i'm also not sold Recoup would be totally playable at this point. Also, i fully admit i'm not 100% understanding everything you disagree with about Noxious, it is easy for me to get lost in longform conversation and analysis.
- Ultimately I've found Gifts decks to just be too weak against modern tempo blue decks. Flusterstorm, in particular, is a real problem. I haven't seriously explored the archetype since the Thorn of Amethyst restriction though, which could possibly free up some space for addressing blue decks.
Yes, that's the real issue. I think in the grand scheme of things it's better to just play more cantrips and counters or PO or such.
Thorn restriction is also something that made me come back to this. I really wanted to play Gifts at Eternal Weekend last year but i ended up not doing so because of Shops. With it's restriction i thought about it again but i couldn't commit to as much playtesting as i wanted so i backed out.
What's your take on Intuition just being a value card? It does work quite a bit differently than Gifts but it just also seems like a flexible insane card in a Snapcaster build or anything that can win with Yawgmoth's.
Did you happen to play or even test Gifts with Kess in your deck you played at EW last year?
@brass-man said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
I can't believe I forgot to write the thing that made me post in the first place!
Gifts is way better here than you thought. With Gifts Ungiven you don't have to find four cards. Because there's a condition (they have to be unique, and you could have a deck of 60 Relentless Rats) you have the option of "failing to find" on any number of of the cards you get. That means, instead of getting Fatty/Rites/Shallow Grave/Looting ... you can search for just Fatty+Unburial Rites. When you find two cards, both just go straight to the graveyard.
Good catch! 100% forgot. I haven't played with Gifts in a while.
@apollogod said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
My favorite Gifts pile is one I currently use in my Acadmey Rector deck. I run 2 Gifts maindeck. This pile requires omniscience in play:
Gifts, Emrakul, Demonic, X (usually a value card of some sort.)
Omniscience makes it all free. If they don’t give you Emrakul, you can just find it again because it will go to GY and be re-shuffled.
The loop can go forever because if they give you Gifts and X, the other Gifts (the one you just cast) is re-shuffled with Emrakul, and you can just repeat the same pile again.
God damn this sounds fun. What's your Rector deck list?
Is this deterministic though? They choose to never give you DT or Emrakul and don't you just run out of cards to pull from your deck?
I guess you just eventually get some other ways to win since you can put as many cards into your hand as your opponent is willing to give you.