4C Cobra gush storm



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  • TMD Supporter

    I would cut Snapcaster, 1 Regrowth, 3 Probe, 1 Gifts, 1 Flusterstorm and add 1 Preordain.



  • I'll dish 1 regrowth, jace, 2 probes, 1 fluster and gifts. pretty similar.



  • It looks and sounds like you're trying to merge two different decks together ( Cobra Storm and Mentor Control)
    I think you might want to focus more on one or the other. " A Jack of all trades is a master of none."
    I won't try to tell you what to cut, that's a matter of personal preference, just want to remind you of some things moving forward.
    Library of Alexandria- great in control decks that like to hold card in the grip until their opponent does something that must be answered, but not so good in decks that want to "storm off"
    Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep-great cards in blue matches, less than worthless against Shops. I can agree with three Missteps, but more than one or two Flusters might be much. Leaving one extra in the side might bethe way to go.
    Win-cons- Tendrils deck sometimes run two mentors or young pyros, but not three. Mentor decks run Jace sometimes, but I don't think they run both Jace and Tendrils. I think you'll need to decide on which is the focal point of your deck.
    Wow, that's a lot of Tutors- seeing that Regrowth is a kind of tutor ( search your graveyard for a card...) well, that's a lot. I would prioritize your tutors and cut your least favorites.
    Regrowth,Snapcaster, and Yawgmoth 's Will vs. Delve cards- simply put, they don't play well together. You should think of cutting Treasure Cruise if you want to keep all the graveyard shananigans, or go the other way. I wouldn't try both.
    Hope this helps you, but remember to do it the way that feels right to you



  • Not that I've ever built a deck like this 😈 but I'd try something like this

    3 Lotus Cobra
    1-2? Monastery Mentor

    3 Duress/Thought Seize
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

    4 Force of Will
    3 Mental Misstep
    4 Gush
    4 Preordain
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Dig Through Time
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Time Walk

    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Fastbond

    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria

    That leaves 3-4 slots. In these type of lists I like having lotus petal as well. You'll probably want some type of bounce Chain/Hurkyl's/Rebuild.
    Probe is decent and great with the top deck tutors but duress will allow you to slow the game down a turn or two.



  • @Fisken may therapy is better than duress with mentor and cobra being in there? Necro seems reasonable too.



  • @wfain necro is definitely playable as we used to play it in these lists. I'd have to try games with therapy unless you just ran it alongside duress?


  • TMD Supporter

    I would cut white and play Managorger Hydra instead of Mentor. Mentor is a stronger card but Hydra is also explosive and you'd have a better manabase.

    Note that I am somewhat biased as I played Cobra Gush Tendrils with a singleton Hydra at vintage champs.



  • The function of Cobra in a Gush deck is to accelerate out big threats and bombs that are otherwise uncastable, like Necropotence, Jace, etc. in most Gush decks. If you aren't going to play those more difficult to play spells, then I don't think Cobra adds enough to justify inclusion. A single Jace and Gifts don't seem enough to me. Also, I can't imagine playing Cobra, and not playing Necro.

    My last Cobra Gush deck from 2012:
    Cobra Gush, by Stephen Menendian
    Business (38)
    4 Lotus Cobra
    4 Gush
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Force of Will
    4 Flusterstorm
    2 Trygon Predator
    1 Necropotence
    1 Fastbond
    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Tinker
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Yawgmoth’s Will
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Merchant Scroll

    Mana Sources (22)
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Island

    Sideboard (15)
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Yixlid Jailer
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Nature’s Claim
    3 Ingot Chewer
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Mountain

    Here was my tournament report:
    http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-2012-vintage-championship-report-post-mortem/



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  • Lotus cobra is only worth the slot if you use it to power out higher cmc spells while operating under a gush manabase ( like Gifts, Jace TMS, Future sight or Mind's Desire).

    I would personally advise you to play Lotus cobra with 3/4 copies of gifts in your gush storm deck, seeing as the resulting consistency gains give you something much closer to doomdsay's ability to go off. I've played cobra a lot and while there are a lot of ways to have fun building decks with it, it tends to be very win-more.

    Here is a list with cobras and gifts:

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Fastbond
    4 Lotus Cobra
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Flusterstorm
    4 Mental Misstep
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Gush
    4 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Dig Through Time
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    2 Regrowth
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    Mentor is not a very good plan b for a Gush storm deck, seeing as it's not very good in the matchup you want to fix (Shops). Pyromancer is much better in the shops matchup + for the role you'd want it in your gush storm deck and red is also a much better splash than white for you (Ancient grudge, dack, pyroblast and other options VS Swords and sideboard cards).



  • @Gonzo that does help a lot, and i do see your point.the cuts ive deceided on is 2 fetches, library, a regrowth, jace, and the two delve cards and i added a basic island. i'm considering changing my counter magic a little but im not sure, and the mentors im not sure if i want to go below three but it will need to be tested, i may cut a flusterstorm for another land.



  • @Smmenen I'll try out the list you posted and go from there, are there any changes you would make to the deck or would you still play the same list? one question i do have is why no misstep?



  • I personally would run red over white and run some copies of burning wish/empty the warrens in my 75.



  • @letseeker
    That's because Steve gave you a list that predates the printing of mental misstep. You are obviously going to get demolished if you play that list with no changes in today's meta.

    Not sure including Git probe in your list is where you want to be, as it takes valuable slots out of a deck that is already ultra tight on slots. Not to mention that it does nothing to improve your consistency like a preordain, ponder & co and using your life as a resource is not a good idea in a deck reliant on fastbond. Finally, as far as helping you go off, I think you would much rather have an extra flusterstorm than get to see your opponent's hand most of the time.
    The only positive synergy I can see is with mentor which helps mitigate the fastbond reliance and helps you leverage the card's value better.

    But I am not even convinced you should be playing mentor anyway, your deck already goes over the top with tendrils and pyromancer provides a much better plan b in grindy/attrition and mana denial based match-ups.

    Gush storm typically does well in most blue match-ups and other combo decks but struggles vs shops and other more consistent and attrition based gush decks. Mentor doesn't do a whole lot to solve anything for you since it doesn't change the dynamics vs gush aggro decks (you have more raw power cards that add variance and they have more draw, control elements and incremental advantages), and it's higher cmc + the impact on the ability to exploit prowess triggers make it clearly worse than pyromancer against Shops.

    And as said Red will give much better tools than white. White has powerful sideboard hosers, but you absolutely can't play Rest in Peace and you don't really need stony silence or containment priest. On the other hand you are more than happy to add dack fayden, pyroblast and ancient grudge which are all maindeckable and more relevant to your difficult match-ups.



  • @Macdeath for awhile i was playing a grixis therapy deck that had the tutors, yawgs will, and fast bond so i could combo but it did not have tendrils, would a list like be where i should be at? the list im talking about was good against the mentor decks and shops pre lodestone restriction but once lodestone was restricted i wanted to change decks because i didnt think pyromancer would be as good, is this not the case? would young pyro be better? the main reason for probe was to know what i need to do, whether to hold back mana for counters, go for the combo, go for a mentor, things like that, if i were to take them out one would be a preordain, but what would the other two slots be? a really weird thing is that in my testing of the deck ive had the exact opposite results, the big blue decks and storm have been bad match ups while shops and other mentor decks are good matchups, could this be because of inexperienced pilots playing the mentor/shops deck or am i just getting lucky? i put together a sideboard and in it it has no white, im going to edit the original post to show what decklist i have come to and the sideboard im currently testing.



  • @letseeker

    @letseeker said:

    @Macdeath for awhile i was playing a grixis therapy deck that had the tutors, yawgs will, and fast bond so i could combo but it did not have tendrils, would a list like be where i should be at? the list im talking about was good against the mentor decks and shops pre lodestone restriction but once lodestone was restricted i wanted to change decks because i didnt think pyromancer would be as good, is this not the case? would young pyro be better? the main reason for probe was to know what i need to do, whether to hold back mana for counters, go for the combo, go for a mentor, things like that, if i were to take them out one would be a preordain, but what would the other two slots be? a really weird thing is that in my testing of the deck ive had the exact opposite results, the big blue decks and storm have been bad match ups while shops and other mentor decks are good matchups, could this be because of inexperienced pilots playing the mentor/shops deck or am i just getting lucky? i put together a sideboard and in it it has no white, im going to edit the original post to show what decklist i have come to and the sideboard im currently testing.

    I like the first list you are describing (but I would still play tendrils), you set yourself out to be a midrangey deck with pyromancer that can also combo out of nowhere if it needs to. If I were to play that deck I would go with something like this:

    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Fastbond
    2 Lotus Cobra
    3 Young Pyromancer
    1 Notion Thief
    2 Dack Fayden
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mental Misstep
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Gush
    1 Dig Through Time
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    Not sure you want the 2 cobras but I personally think they are necessary anytime you are playing 4 colors in a gush deck for mana stability.

    Gitaxian probe is a fine card but I personally think it's usefulness is overrated in decks that typically don't win on the spot. I mean sure it's great knowing that your opponent doesn't have misstep and being able to fire an ancestral or something but most of the time you get to see their hand and a few turns later when the information becomes really relevant, the content of their hand has vastly changed and this is especially true against a deck with a lot of manipulation. For this reason I am not a fan of probe in control or control-combo decks. I also don't like the randomness probe adds and would rather use those slots for cards with more impact on the game.

    But back to your OP, I think white just doesn't work with a gushbond + tendrils build, I have tried it a few times but each time they just end up being strictly worse than a Jeskai mentor deck. You basically become a win more version of that deck with more variance and less control elements. I feel like the pyromancer version is a lot more stable and more able to play an attrition game while retaining the over the top element with tendrils.
    I have come to the conclusion that as far as Gush decks go currently in the meta the options along the spectrum are: Doomsday for the combo approach as a meta choice, Pyromancer + gushbond as a midrangey comboish approach hedged against shops that is Cool but not very competitive, Delver for the tempo approach and last but not least jeskai Mentor which just sucks up all the midrange portion of the viable gush decks and largely responsible for the disappearance of gush storm, since that deck takes basically 4 slots to do everything gush-storm does with half of its cards...



  • Is there anyway to make Cobra work without Gush? More of a Cobra Gifts Tendrils? I only ask because I dont own power and want to play in a local sanctioned vintage tournament but at the same time, wanna play tendrils and control.
    If not I'm just reverting to ANT last minute.



  • @Ten-Ten i dont think playing cobra without gush is a good idea, the whole point of playing cobra is because of gush


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