Transmute Artifact



  • @MaximumCDawg I agree wholeheartedly, I was just saying that it may be worth adding to help Transmute out big boys without having to make huge amounts of mana. I think if you wanted to play Transmute it would be boring to only be tutoring out small things like Vault/Key, Top or whatever other useful artifact you can find.



  • @maximumcdawg said in Transmute Artifact:

    @rat3de Well, let's play that out. What's the best line here?

    T1 - Land, Welder
    T2 - Mox, Mox, Transmute away one Mox to bin Inkwell/Sphinx, Weld out?

    That's not too shabby but it's a pretty long line of things to have to occur.

    You only need one mox and one volc/rainbow land there. I think a Vintage Reanimator may be better though.



  • @john-cox I think you need two moxen; one to Transmute away, and one to Weld away.

    @rat3de said in Transmute Artifact:

    @MaximumCDawg I agree wholeheartedly, I was just saying that it may be worth adding to help Transmute out big boys without having to make huge amounts of mana. I think if you wanted to play Transmute it would be boring to only be tutoring out small things like Vault/Key, Top or whatever other useful artifact you can find.

    Sure, but at that point I think I like Trinket Mage better for most uses. It misses Vault but gets everything else.



  • @maximumcdawg said in Transmute Artifact:

    @rat3de Well, let's play that out. What's the best line here?

    T1 - Land, Welder
    T2 - Mox, Mox, Transmute away one Mox to bin Inkwell/Sphinx, Weld out?

    That's not too shabby but it's a pretty long line of things to have to occur.

    If you have this set up then you also have T1-T2 Land Mox Mox Tinker without needing the welder and you can get blightsteel if don't want inky.

    You can also have
    T1 - Underground, Mox, Demonic for Tinker
    T2 - Mox or land, Tinker

    T1 - Land, EOT Mystical tutor or Vampiric tutor for Tinker
    T2 - Mox, mox or land, Tinker

    Once again, I assume your not playing 4 copies of transmute and most likely running 1, so this argument is not about having more cards to draw into to get there and not about liklihood of drawing it in the opener. There are just better cards that support better lines of play in this case. It does look like a better fit with time vault where the mana cost differential is not substantial, but even there I cannot truly justify what we are trying to make happen.



  • @MaximumCDawg I could be wrong, but I think you may have missed my point about Welder. The whole point of running Welder in a Transmute Artifact deck is that you would be able to tutor up things bigger 1 cmc and if necessary not have to pay the cost. Not only does Trinket Mage miss Vault in a build like this, but it also misses every other fatty you could ever want, such as Blightsteel Colossus, Inkwell Leviathan and Sphinx of the Steel Winds (which I think may be underplayed). Now if you are not running those, then you most likely do not need to be playing a Transmute Artifact deck, which is what this whole thread is about.



  • @protoaddct Of COURSE Tinker is better in 99% of cases, the point is to play another similar card to use when you don't have Tinker or cannot tutor for it.



  • @Wagner

    What is the circumstance you are in where you cannot tutor for tinker but can play Transmute? The only one I can actually think of that is realistic to think could happen is Meddling Mage, but mage can just as easily name Transmute if they wanted to. Things that prevent you from going into your deck like Aven Mindcensor affect all these cards equally.

    If you have a tutor in hand and your options are tinker or transmute, in what situation would you pick transmute in the course of a normal magic game?

    I'll put this another way. I would sooner run my first copy of personal tutor than my first of transmute in almost every situation I can come up with, and that card sees no play.



  • @protoaddct This is where I always came down when I was running the card. Transmute Artifact is not as good as Tinker, so right away if we want to tutor an artifact we start with 1 Tinker. Next, we consider whether Transmute Artifact is better than Demonic Tutor. Almost certainly not, so we add DT to our artifact tutor package. Then we ask is Transmute Artifact better than Mystical Tutor? Well, given that we're running Tinker, probably not, so now we're up to 3 tutors.

    Only at this point do I consider jamming a Transmute, and I'm skeptical even that is correct. How many more tutors can we realistically jam into the deck? I'm down with some build where we're just running counters and tutors and want to win with keyvault pronto - Turbo Vault? - but I've never seen that.

    That's why I said that a deck who wants Transmute Artifact would need to be heavily leveraging what makes the card DIFFERENT from these other choices in a potentially positive way. Namely:

    1. It costs UU. That's cheaper than Tinker and less Black than Demonic Tutor. So, maybe if you want a mono-blue artifact deck, this goes up in consideration. Traditionally the trade off of going mono color has not been seen as worth it by control players, though...

    2. It's an Entomb for artifacts. In Vintage, the graveyard is halfway into play! This is the angle that seems to have the most promise to me, but it requires tons of (easily disrupted) things to go right in order to get an advantage. Plus, any deck who wants to use the graveyard has to ask whether they're better than Dredge, since they fall to the same hate.

    I'd love to see some suggested builds using Transmute Artifact. Absent that, my suspicion is we're just not there yet. Here are the kind of cards that I think would push me to really want to use it:

    1. Some kind of artifact fatty or with a powerful activation cost that comes out of the yard on its own power, like Metalwork Colossus, but with a more Vintage-friendly condition. Like, you can cast it from the yard by pitching other cards from the yard or based on storm count or I dunno.

    2. Some other generally useful card that does something bah-roken if you have a significant artifact in the yard early in the game. Like, maybe a bolt where you can exile artifacts from the yard to do damage equal to their casting cost.

    3. Something that rewards you heavily for being mono-blue and wants to be in an artifact deck. Like, Back to Basics that also makes your blue spells and artifacts cost 1 less.

    I don't think any of these specific card ideas would be printed, but my point is that there are fissures between what Transmute does and what "better" tutors do that can be potentially leveraged by new printings.



  • @protoaddct I think the idea is that Transmute becomes tinker 2-5 (or however many your running). Personal tutor is a good idea to in this sort of list (I would assume). One problem with Personal Tutor is you can loose Tinker to Leyline/Will, Transmute is also a bit faster.

    Edit: -Also what @MaximumCDawg said.


  • TMD Supporter

    Grim monolith and mana vault are both friends with transmute, as is painter combo, if you really want to play it.



  • @garbageaggro said in Transmute Artifact:

    Grim monolith and mana vault are both friends with transmute, as is painter combo, if you really want to play it.

    I mean, all of these still play well with Tinker first and foremost, which leads you down the same evaluation path.

    Here is where my head is. If you could construct a reason to play mono blue transmute gets a bit of value but for the life of me I cannot think of a list that can justify that. Let's say you wanted to do some sort of Turbo Timevault thing. Your still going to run off color moxen because you need targets but I GUESS you could start here:

    1 Ancestral
    1 Timewalk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    5 Moxen
    1 Sol ring
    1 Mana crypt
    1 Mana vault
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Force of will
    4 Mental Misstep
    1 Tinker
    4 Voltaic Key
    4 Voltaic Servant
    1 time vault
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant scroll
    X Transmute Artifact

    Now just as a thought experiment, answer these questions

    • What actual value are you realistically getting out of going mono blue?
    • With all the ramp would you not be better off running copies of Tezz first?
    • Is transmute still worth using over other possible blue tutor options like personal tutor, or even more xerox pieces like Preordain, Gush, Treasure Cruise, etc?

    It just seems like there is simply too much competition for that slot. Tinker is most of the time a card that you win the game off of because your game plan around it is to set up protection the turn you go off. Every Transmute you also run in your deck is one less counterspell potentially to protect the wincon. In this regard the 3 mana versus 2 mana (if you are so lucky) is almost irrelevant since it is not something you are rushing out until your protection is in place.


 

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