November 26 Banned & Restricted Announcement

Seems like people aren't still understanding what ban/restriction is about. It's not about powerful cards. It's about the decks. It's always been.

Do anyone thing 'felidar guardian' was too strong for standard? The jeskai saheeli deck was.

Is paradoxical outcome too strong for the format? No, it's not.

Are decks that run gush and that would run more copies of gush balanced in the format? Yes, they are. Would they get opressive if gush was unbanned? Probably. The same goes to brainstorm. OH BUT MISSTEP... is usually run as a 4-of in those decks. Do you think those decks wouldn't run more copies of brainstorm? One of the closest card to recall to find relevant/strong cards.

Would you like to have jeskai mentor dominating the format again, or even other fair blue decks? I wouldn't. The format is each time more balanced in terms of numbers. We don't see any deck with more than 20% anymore, and if I'm not mistaken, when I started playing vintage (last year) it was 50% shops/jeskai. Now the 2 more dominant decks don't have 30% of the total results. And I think their win rate isn't as great as it was.

You ban/unban cards if you want to see the rise/fall (not the card) of decks. Sure, other decks can show up out of nowhere. But the least they have to do, is see what there is already. Bans should happen only when there's too much opression for a format. Unban should happen if you think no deck would become too unbalanced. There may be some cards worth unbanning, I don't know exactly all cards that are restricted/banned in the format to say "no card should be unbanned", but from those cards you are talking about, I don't see any that fit those requirements.

@davidlemon I agree with you that Brainstorm can't be unrestricted with the rest of the B&R list staying the same. 4xPO and 4xBrainstorm would not be fun to play against. I guess part of what I'm trying to say to say is I'd prefer unrestricted Brainstorm and restricted PO than the other way around. Though I don't mind unrestricted PO.

@moorebrother1 Brainstorm and Ponder together is pretty painful, but I'm guessing with Ponder (arguably the more self-sufficient card) restricted, Brainstorm itself wouldn't restrict deck diversity as much as it did back then. We also have a lot more tools to deal with 1cmc spells than they did back in the late 2000's. Paradoxical Outcome would have to go if (big if) Brainstorm ever becomes unrestricted. I guess a lot of people wouldn't be ok with that.

Legacy is a pretty diverse format despite both Brainstorm and Ponder being legal. Granted, many of the more powerful cards available in Vintage are banned in Legacy, but without Ponder, the most effective number of Brainstorms in most decks may be less than 4. Obviously I've never played Vintage with 4 copies of Brainstorm, so I'm likely blatantly wrong.

last edited by Nower1990

Legacy is diverse(ish), but the format still basically balances out to nearly half the format is comprised of decks playing 4 Brainstorm. You are very rarely seeing any deck that plays blue in some capacity that does not want to play 4 Brainstorm. If you had access to play 4 here, I think you would still always want to play 4. The card is just that good.

Unrestricted Brainstorm sounds abysmal - and I'm very liberal with regards to unrestricting stuff. I'm not sure how Brainstorm came up in this thread, I don't ever recall a discussion on that card before.

Ponder would be a much better unrestriction (if you're looking for a blue cantrip to unrestrict). In fact, I'm not sure why Ponder is restricted while Preordain isn't. Preordain is in my opinion a stronger card.

I think these cards are pretty safe to unrestrict:

Imperial Seal
Thorn of Amethyst

And I think these possible could come off as well:

Mystical Tutor
Flash (I didn't play in the Flash era, so I'm not sure about this one)


You can't have 8 Ponder/Preordain effects in a healthy format IMO. It's one or the other, and Ponder is considered better as it can dig a card deeper, so that's the route WOTC took.

Flash would be disastrous. Not even Protean Hulk anymore, but Academy Rector into Y. Bargain/Omniscience.

I am grateful nobody here is on the DCI.


last edited by ChubbyRain

Unrestrict Channel, restrict Fireball. Should be fine.

I might be missing something, but I don't see how unrestricted Channel would dominate or ruin the format, but I'm very interested in hearing why you think it would.

I could certainly see a UG Show and Tell/ Channel/Eureka deck with giant Eldrazi dudes being super annoying.

How quickly people forget that Charbelcher originated as a Green/Black/Blue 2 Land Deck. Channel was the best card in that deck, BAR NONE. If it resolved, you won the game 90% of the time.

Michael Simester
Columbus, Ohio, Feb. 7th, 2004
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Channel
4 Tinder Wall
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Barbed Sextant
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
2 Living Wish
2 Goblin Welder

This deck could easily be modified for (A) the metagame and new cards 14 years later, and (B) with 4 channel. Channel-Liches Mirror belcher? YES PLEASE!

4 Channel
4 Lichs Mirror
4 Pact of Negation
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Manamorphose
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
4 Serum Powder
1 Memory Jar

Considering Channel + Litchs mirror is a draw 7 that gives you 34 colorless mana, I'm pretty sure you could easily win the game turn 1 a frightening amount of the time.

@13nova That actually looks pretty fun even with the one Channel.

@craw_advantage I played a similar deck in the Romancing the Stones 4 and 5 I think (may be fuzzy on which events I ran it). Biggest issue was counters and on color mana. Your opponent counters your draw 7, or if they don't, they get a counter in their new cards. 4 Channel would make that deck utterly nuts and you could liberally bait counters out on spells that didn't actually matter because you have 19 mana to work with.

Decks with unacceptably high turn 1-2 win rates often appear pretty fun...

You really don’t even need the inconsistency of belcher. Just run the preordain engine and combo on turn 2-3 with counter back up and win with stroke of genius.

You can also run this in fair decks. Forest, ESG, Channel, Reality Smasher, Metamorph, Sphere is fair right? It’s budget, it has to be fair.

@Griselbrother do you have mtgo? I am more than willing to test this.

Edit: In before someone says "Mono green Eldrazi deserves to be a deck" and another person says "Vintage needs more budget options". It's a turn 2 kill with a sphere effect with theoretically nothing but unrestricted cards... No, Vintage doesn't need that. Diversity be damned.

last edited by ChubbyRain

No one from my playgroup has any interest in traveling to vintage tournaments because of the state of the format, with Mental Misstep and PO being specifically cited. Misstep is tired and PO amounts to watching someone jerk off in front of you while you just sit there and beg them to hurry up and finish so you can get on with your life.

I am probably the one who is not bothered by playing against PO 😞

Although, a restriction would be fine by me, simply because of meta share.

@messplaypc said in November 26 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

No one from my playgroup has any interest in traveling to vintage tournaments because of the state of the format, with Mental Misstep and PO being specifically cited. Misstep is tired and PO amounts to watching someone jerk off in front of you while you just sit there and beg them to hurry up and finish so you can get on with your life.

There was a similar problem firing Vintage in Atlanta. The TO restricted Misstep and it's fired a couple of times now. I do miss that skill intense Misstep subgame though. Turns out with 1 Misstep the 100 other counters that are good vs. outcome can actually resolve and people have room in their non-Thorn decks for them because every non combo blue deck doesn't have to start with 4 force, 4 skillstep.

@nedleeds how does discard like Duress, thoughtseize and therapy perform in that environment? How aboutDark Ritual?

@aelien Our Vintage events have fired, but still haven't been many people, let alone people actively exploring their options in a single Misstep world. I've tested the waters with Crop Rotation in Survival, and SkullclampShops.

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