Experimental Combo



  • I am not sure if people are just lumping this deck in with Paradoxical Outcome but I believe that there is something different going on here.

    This list is similar to a list I recently put together and I want help exploring this deck.

    Top 8 - Joe Gallego - Hot Coffee
    Maindeck:
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    2 Spire of Industry
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Aetherflux Reservoir
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Demonic Tutor
    4 Experimental Frenzy
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Helm of Awakening
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 Paradoxical Outcome
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Time Vault
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Tinker
    3 Voltaic Key
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    Sideboard:
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    2 Defense Grid
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Nature's Claim

    I think this could be a tier 1 or tier 2 deck with some work. I like how the deck plays and it is not so easy to disrupt if it is put together a bit differently.

    My version looks like this but is still a work in progress
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 Spire of Industry
    1 Tolarian Academy

    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Vault
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Tinker
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Ponder
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Monastery Mentor

    4 Experimental Frenzy
    4 Paradoxical Outcome
    1 Aetherflux Reservoir
    1 Tendril's of Agony

    3 Defense Grid
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Grim Monolith
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Paradox Engine
    1 Voltaic Key

    SB
    4 Assassin's Trophy
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Kambal Consul of Allocation
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

    I like the idea of a 5 color Academy style deck. I think playing defense with Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy will be the solid. Playing a sideboard that tilts into a controlish deck gives you a lot of versitility.



  • @moorebrother1 I was actually thinking that because of how explosive it is there is probably room in the metagame for a Doomsday version and a maybe a Lab Man version, especially if Oath, Top and Helm are in the build.



  • @moorebrother1 The deck looks neat. Using multicolor lands instead of basics could be advantageous since there's a lot of artifact mana. I like that there's a theme to the deck as well. I'm excited to try this out.

    @rat3de There might be a cool Doomsday deck in those ideas.

    I tried using PO with Doomsday (thanks to Gush restriction) but every iteration felt like regular PO storm with extra and unnecessary steps. Usually, by the time you could cast Doomsday, you could instead get a lot of storm and win. Using Doomsday also entails having cards in the main deck that don't synergize much with PO, like Dark Ritual. Four Mox Opals might be able to replace it though. One could even take the black splash further and add Mind Twist. I feel like Mind Twist could be amazing with both PO and Doomsday.

    Perhaps using Burning Wish like the Legacy build to reduce clutter in the main deck could be good. A light red splash could be beneficial in other ways, like allowing access to the usual red cards, and maybe even Blood Moon (since PO relies so much on artifact mana).



  • @Nower1990 I was thinking of foregoing PO in a build like actually. I think just ripping a bunch of mana and then finding either doomsday or helm + top and win with either labman or storm.



  • @rat3de I think the strength of PO in this deck is when Frenzy isn't present. But you could build a DD half of the deck that works without EF.



  • Hey what event was this in the t8 for? I see someone 5-0'd recently with it. I got the first 5-0 with it and I love the deck and the concept; the list you posted looks like my list a lot, especially the SB.

    Glad to see some more people trying it out and being interested in it. I do think it has a lot of legs but not exactly sure what to tweak. From my experience playing the Temporal Aperture version, Paradox Engine is either "I have to have this in play to win" or "Win More"; usually it was the former, making the combo hard to setup.



  • @cleverpseudonym I found that this list is from the LCV tournament. Sweet!



  • @spook said in Experimental Combo:

    @rat3de I think the strength of PO in this deck is when Frenzy isn't present. But you could build a DD half of the deck that works without EF.

    Wouldn't you just pick up the frenzy as well so there is no down side?


  • TMD Supporter

    The two cards (EF+PO) combo really works well together as the deploying of resources helps setting up the EF and then you can PO with all the producers on the table. You need to return EF to hand, otherwise you will not be able to play any of the returned/drawn cards aka Total Outome Fail XD



  • @wiley said in Experimental Combo:

    @spook said in Experimental Combo:

    @rat3de I think the strength of PO in this deck is when Frenzy isn't present. But you could build a DD half of the deck that works without EF.

    Wouldn't you just pick up the frenzy as well so there is no down side?

    They work really well together, but they also work well on their own.

    Building EF / DD, I don’t know if that is true.



  • I was hoping for discussion on how to make a better version of the deck. I like the 5 color concept because it offers so much flexibility and you avoid the trap of focusing only on blue and the fetch land interactions. Wasteland is less prominent so the 5 color lands should help in the long run.

    I want main deck Abrupt Decay to kill Stony Silence and Null Rod and Thalia. It also helps with Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.

    Going with main deck Defense Grid makes it so that I do not need to play FOW in the deck. The deck rips through the pretty fast and it is consistent. The normal disruption against PO does not effect this deck as much at all. Thoughts?



  • One of these decks came in top in the challenge. I think there is really something here and I really like it.

    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Vault
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Aetherflux Reservoir
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Pearl
    3 Voltaic Key
    4 Helm of Awakening
    4 Experimental Frenzy
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Paradoxical Outcome
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Spire of Industry
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    Sideboard
    4 Defense Grid
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Balance
    2 Nature's Claim
    2 Oath of Druids
    3 Tormod's Crypt

    I'm not sold on the Helm of Awakening but it appears to work. Also, it is going for 4 Sensei's Diving Top, which I also like. This is quickly becoming my favor PO style deck, but it is not technically a PO deck.

    I was hoping for more discussion on the deck so, I will do some analysis on my own and return for a breakdown.

    For those interested, here are my questions:
    Is the Helm/Top combo the best line to lean on?
    Is Monastery Mentor a good creature in this deck?
    Aside from Aetherflux Reservoir what other kill conditions should be played?
    What are your best anti-hate/hate cards?



  • This post is deleted!


  • @moorebrother1 cool! That pilot is, I believe, the originator of the previous incarnation of the deck, Aperture Science.

    Main deck looks pretty similar amongst the lists. I think the side board is interesting.

    I can’t usually play in the challenge but I can see why this deck might do better in a bigger field than the leagues; probably less so if it is a known quantity.



  • @cleverpseudonym I’ve tried mentor and can sometimes be very powerful. But the deck positions itself in a way that you need to win that turn or next attack step with BSC.

    Most times, the monk and his tokens I found could not win/prevent me from dying.



  • Is there a reason a new thread was created instead of adding onto the single card discussion thread for Experimental Frenzy? Not that I care too much. I just kind of liked how the card was written off as unplayable garbage and continues to generate interest (not to mention now a Challenge top 8 ).

    To answer you questions @moorebrother1 :

    1. Top is pretty clearly the best single card to break with Frenzy. It mitigates the damage of bricking on another 4 drop (since you can just draw the card for 1) and turns your non-combos into draw 5+ cards. It's hard to imagine a Frenzy deck in Vintage without 4 Tops (and that's ignoring the synergy with Outcome). From there, Helm would have to be a pretty terrible card not to deserve some consideration. It turns out, the card is alright and has decent synergy with the PO and artifact components of the deck. Multiples can be awkward, so I tend to run 3, but 4 is realistic and you win a lot of games by landing an early Frenzy + Top and just digging towards Helm. That doesn't mean you can't run other combos.

    2. If your mana base can support him, he's definitely a consideration but it depends on the metagame. Mentor is a self-contained win-con that ignores null rod, dodges pyroblast, and is generally not something your opponent will be prepared to answer in sb games. So you are going to want him mostly as a SB card against fair decks that board in null rod, like BUG Fish and Xerox or Blue control decks. Against Paradoxical, @cleverpseudonym really kinda hits the nail on the head...if you aren't winning that turn, you are probably dying. And against Survival, they are typically flying over you with Wonder, so I haven't found Mentor great. Shops? Mentor dies to ballista but if it lives, it's pretty solid. The big thing though is that I don't like the 5 color mana base. I prefer the 2 color mana base.

    3. The thing to keep in mind with win conditions is that they theoretically make your combo less consistent. If you are jamming in Tinker + Blightsteel or Emrakul, those aren't great hits when digging with Frenzy. So initially I tried Aetherflux Resevoir since it's castable off of Workshop and it can win with PO or just Helm + 2 Tops. It did its job but didn't play particularly well with PO (when you are trying to combo off) or Frenzy when you didn't have an open Workshop. I've just started to Experiment with the Painter's Combo and it's been great. The combo pieces are cheap enough that they work with both PO and Frenzy. Oh, and you get to run enough of them that you occasionally just draw them and win.

    4. A second reason I wanted to try Painter was it let me run Pyroblasts as maindeck answers to...everything. Counterspells? Blast them. Opposing PO? Blast them. Null Rod? Painter name Blue. Then Blast them. Frenzy got you down? Painter then Blast? Flip a blast during a Frenzy turn? Blast something...anything...then keep going. It solved an issue I had with the deck which was limited interaction.

    Currently 3-0, 6-0 with the deck on stream. Going to go for the trophy tomorrow night but it's food for thought.



  • @chubbyrain The reason for the new thread is focus on this deck, not the card. I originally replied to the card discussion with the Top combo in mind but I was concerned about Mental Misstep/Null Rod/Stony Silence.

    I like your ideas on the deck, I always like the Future Sight idea for a a deck. I want to focus more on playing it like an old Academy deck that just pushes into a combo super fast disruption be damned.


 

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