The two cards (EF+PO) combo really works well together as the deploying of resources helps setting up the EF and then you can PO with all the producers on the table. You need to return EF to hand, otherwise you will not be able to play any of the returned/drawn cards aka Total Outome Fail XD
@rat3de I think the strength of PO in this deck is when Frenzy isn't present. But you could build a DD half of the deck that works without EF.
Wouldn't you just pick up the frenzy as well so there is no down side?
They work really well together, but they also work well on their own.
Building EF / DD, I don’t know if that is true.
I was hoping for discussion on how to make a better version of the deck. I like the 5 color concept because it offers so much flexibility and you avoid the trap of focusing only on blue and the fetch land interactions. Wasteland is less prominent so the 5 color lands should help in the long run.
I want main deck Abrupt Decay to kill Stony Silence and Null Rod and Thalia. It also helps with Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.
Going with main deck Defense Grid makes it so that I do not need to play FOW in the deck. The deck rips through the pretty fast and it is consistent. The normal disruption against PO does not effect this deck as much at all. Thoughts?
One of these decks came in top in the challenge. I think there is really something here and I really like it.
1 Mox Ruby
1 Time Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
3 Voltaic Key
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Experimental Frenzy
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Spire of Industry
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Defense Grid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nature's Claim
2 Oath of Druids
3 Tormod's Crypt
I'm not sold on the Helm of Awakening but it appears to work. Also, it is going for 4 Sensei's Diving Top, which I also like. This is quickly becoming my favor PO style deck, but it is not technically a PO deck.
I was hoping for more discussion on the deck so, I will do some analysis on my own and return for a breakdown.
For those interested, here are my questions:
Is the Helm/Top combo the best line to lean on?
Is Monastery Mentor a good creature in this deck?
Aside from Aetherflux Reservoir what other kill conditions should be played?
What are your best anti-hate/hate cards?
@moorebrother1 cool! That pilot is, I believe, the originator of the previous incarnation of the deck, Aperture Science.
Main deck looks pretty similar amongst the lists. I think the side board is interesting.
I can’t usually play in the challenge but I can see why this deck might do better in a bigger field than the leagues; probably less so if it is a known quantity.
Is there a reason a new thread was created instead of adding onto the single card discussion thread for Experimental Frenzy? Not that I care too much. I just kind of liked how the card was written off as unplayable garbage and continues to generate interest (not to mention now a Challenge top 8 ).
To answer you questions @moorebrother1 :
Top is pretty clearly the best single card to break with Frenzy. It mitigates the damage of bricking on another 4 drop (since you can just draw the card for 1) and turns your non-combos into draw 5+ cards. It's hard to imagine a Frenzy deck in Vintage without 4 Tops (and that's ignoring the synergy with Outcome). From there, Helm would have to be a pretty terrible card not to deserve some consideration. It turns out, the card is alright and has decent synergy with the PO and artifact components of the deck. Multiples can be awkward, so I tend to run 3, but 4 is realistic and you win a lot of games by landing an early Frenzy + Top and just digging towards Helm. That doesn't mean you can't run other combos.
If your mana base can support him, he's definitely a consideration but it depends on the metagame. Mentor is a self-contained win-con that ignores null rod, dodges pyroblast, and is generally not something your opponent will be prepared to answer in sb games. So you are going to want him mostly as a SB card against fair decks that board in null rod, like BUG Fish and Xerox or Blue control decks. Against Paradoxical, @cleverpseudonym really kinda hits the nail on the head...if you aren't winning that turn, you are probably dying. And against Survival, they are typically flying over you with Wonder, so I haven't found Mentor great. Shops? Mentor dies to ballista but if it lives, it's pretty solid. The big thing though is that I don't like the 5 color mana base. I prefer the 2 color mana base.
The thing to keep in mind with win conditions is that they theoretically make your combo less consistent. If you are jamming in Tinker + Blightsteel or Emrakul, those aren't great hits when digging with Frenzy. So initially I tried Aetherflux Resevoir since it's castable off of Workshop and it can win with PO or just Helm + 2 Tops. It did its job but didn't play particularly well with PO (when you are trying to combo off) or Frenzy when you didn't have an open Workshop. I've just started to Experiment with the Painter's Combo and it's been great. The combo pieces are cheap enough that they work with both PO and Frenzy. Oh, and you get to run enough of them that you occasionally just draw them and win.
A second reason I wanted to try Painter was it let me run Pyroblasts as maindeck answers to...everything. Counterspells? Blast them. Opposing PO? Blast them. Null Rod? Painter name Blue. Then Blast them. Frenzy got you down? Painter then Blast? Flip a blast during a Frenzy turn? Blast something...anything...then keep going. It solved an issue I had with the deck which was limited interaction.
Currently 3-0, 6-0 with the deck on stream. Going to go for the trophy tomorrow night but it's food for thought.
@chubbyrain The reason for the new thread is focus on this deck, not the card. I originally replied to the card discussion with the Top combo in mind but I was concerned about Mental Misstep/Null Rod/Stony Silence.
I like your ideas on the deck, I always like the Future Sight idea for a a deck. I want to focus more on playing it like an old Academy deck that just pushes into a combo super fast disruption be damned.
I have been brewing with this deck concept and I added Paradox Engine. It is an I win card instead of an I win more card in this deck. The 5 casting cost is not much of an issue with Workshop and Monolith. I never liked key as much but it pairs well with Helm.