Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade



  • @aelien The leonine arbiter template is a nonstarter. The card leads to judge calls and horrible experiences on mtgo. It’s widely recognized as a mistake.

    As for the other designs, wizards had tried that template with kambal, harsh mentor, and others. Obviously they are aware they can design cards this way. Why do you think they chose not to?



  • @chubbyrain true the arbiter wording regularly leads to misunderstandings. I basically just wanted to pitch ideas without getting the wording perfectly.
    Do you think a wording like "as long as [card] is on the stack, each other players spells cost (2) more to cast" this would not only make this card hard to counter without just saying "can't be countered" but it would also allow for very interesting protection possibilies, where you could basically but this spell on the stack and then use its ability to get a temporary defense grid effect for your instants.

    Iam not sure if your question as to why they chose to use a static "opponents can't do x" ability was rethorical and you expect an answer like "because it's not powerful enough" or something like that. If that is the case I do not agree with that. Leovolds card drawing ability is powerful enough, ogThalia is, scap clan, kambal...are all powerful enough without saying "you can't do X"



  • @aelien said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    @griselbrother did you read my comment before? I gave a few examples how not to design hate cards and how to do it properly, that still allows for interesting choices.
    Don't use a static "X can't be done" but instead use stuff like:
    "1 whenever an opponent draws a card, other than the first card in their turn, they lose 2 life"
    or
    "2 Whenever an opponent plays an artifact spell they discard a card"
    or
    "3 This creature can't be countered, any player may pay (2) to ignore this effect until end of turn"

    1. This seems just worse than Spirit of the Labyrinth, which is already not very playable.
    2. Now that is super interesting, however discard and artifact hate don't go together well on the color pie. It would have to be a black-green creature. Unless you make the discard random, in that case red only could work.
    3. Being uncounterable isn't enough by itself to be playable. Vexing Susher is uncounterable has been making all your spells uncounterable for 10 years and sees very little play. Making it counterable for a cost is much much worse than this.

    I get what you're getting to, but giving the opponent a choice in what they can and can't do has pretty much never been a viable option and permanents that do that rarely see any play.



    1. This seems just worse than Spirit of the Labyrinth, which is already not very playable.
    2. Now that is super interesting, however discard and artifact hate don't go together well on the color pie. It would have to be a black-green creature. Unless you make the discard random, in that case red only could work.
    3. Being uncounterable isn't enough by itself to be playable. Vexing Susher is uncounterable has been making all your spells uncounterable for 10 years and sees very little play. Making it counterable for a cost is much much worse than this.
    1. Yeah it is, however the point exactly was to not have "players cant draw more than 1 card each turn" and substitute it for a more interesting ability that still leaves interesting choices open.
    2. true.
    3. This is not meant as a whole card design, but just as an ability to slap on cards that would otherwise get "cant be countered"

    All of these are not full card designes, but rather are examples on how to handle "hate" while not using "x cant be done" design. These are not meant to be powerful enough, balanced, or the only ability a creatue should have. These are just design ideas to mix and match with power/thoughness, cmc, other abilities and stuff like that,



  • @aelien

    Of course, the but issue is that the P/T can't vary that much. If it costs 1, it's unlikely to have a clock that makes it matter. If it costs 2, it really can't go more than a 3/2 without warping other formats or the color pie, and anything costing 3 and more it's likely just too slow to be a reliable threat.

    That's all to be taken into account in the design, and that's why I'd like to see a card design that is both balanced and powerful enough.

    Taking your second idea, I would drop that on a 2/3 body for BG and I think it could fringe playable because of the difficult color combination.



  • @josefk said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    @stormanimagus
    I don't think the deck will have high enough powerlevel, but as a long time fan of tax-rack in general (currently playing it in premodern) and parfait i like the interaction between land tax and Lavinia. I know i'm gonna try some brew with tax-rack, mox diamond (always good with land tax, but also more ways for t1 lavinia). Blue for fow misstep daze and the regular good blue cards. Enlightened tutor + toolbox package. Something to kill their lands, maybe cataclysm. And a kill condition, maybe belcher + tinker + blightsteel. I know i played blueberry parfait in a tournament a long time ago and had a lot of fun.

    I do think it will be hard to make it viable when on the draw and opponent starts with 2+ moxes. Stony silence is kind of a nonbo with scroll rack.

    @josefk you can use Ratchet Bomb, Dack Fayden, Ancient Grudge or even Gorilla Shaman to deal with opposing moxen.



  • @aelien said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    Iam not sure if your question as to why they chose to use a static "opponents can't do x" ability was rethorical and you expect an answer like "because it's not powerful enough" or something like that. If that is the case I do not agree with that. Leovolds card drawing ability is powerful enough, ogThalia is, scap clan, kambal...are all powerful enough without saying "you can't do X"

    Actually, no they are not powerful enough. Leovold's card drawing ability is nice, but were it not for his "opponents can't draw cards" ability, he'd be trash. Thalia is a sphere - she basically reads "players can't play spells for their mana cost" and is one-sided due to the build she is featured in. Scrap clan and Kambal are decent, but are not game winning in most cases. They are SB cards vs storm and are marginally good vs a couple decks. They do squat vs dredge or shops. The reason WotC went with "player can't do X" ability is because it's the kind of ability most likely to work. All the "give my opponent a chance to play around this ability" abilities basically make the creatures more annoying vanilla bears. Tacking 2 on to a counterspell is miles worse than "can't be countered". How hard is it to get 2 mana in vintage to pair with your free FoW?

    There may be more interesting abilities than "can't do X," but those abilities are not playable/viable in the wide spectrum of Vintage meta. Lavinia DOES give the opponent a choice...play lands to cast spells and stop being greedy with your 13 land manabase. Play REB, Pyro, Fluster, Drain, and stop expecting every counterspell to be free.

    Lavinia is good as she is castable early, stops free counters, stops Workshop ramp, shuts down combo, stops dread return, negates moxen (you can't cast them or use their accel to go beyond your land count). She's basically everything bears wants - a versatile tool vs every deck...you know, like FoW is. Bout time bears got something as widely useful as FoW.



  • @thewhitedragon69 I could either respond to most of your quite nonsensical points, but i iam very lazy and at a friend's right now so please just read my big post from before.



  • Does anyone think the wording is weird on this card? It looks like WoTC is using the same wording for triggers as Chalice of the void. They have said several times that if they would remake chalice they would make the spells unable to be cast instead (along the lines as sanctum prelate) .
    This card seems like its a judges nightmare at the next year's GPs.



  • @john-cox Kevin Cron talked about this on his twitter briefly: https://twitter.com/kevincron/status/1074706109682847744



  • @aelien said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    @thewhitedragon69 I could either respond to most of your quite nonsensical points, but i iam very lazy and at a friend's right now so please just read my big post from before.

    I'd like to hear, at least, which of those points were nonsensical specifically, and why you think so. The abilities that do not shut off an opponent's ability to perform an action are rarely powerful enough to be playable.

    You mention leovold's ability being strong enough, but if he didn't have the "opponents can't draw more than 1 card" ability, do you really think he'd be playable just because he lets you draw when your stuff is targeted? I highly doubt it.



  • This card is going to make jeskai a really good deck. The ability to run this, as well as removal, pyroblast and play a lean curve will be really good.



  • @wagner said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    At a time where most sets don't even include a Vintage playable card, I'm just always excited to see a new card that could shake things up a bit, especially one that has an ability we've never seen before.

    No? I haven't been actually playing Vintage for too long, but there are a ton of new cards in Vintage for sure. I saw four Guilds of Ravnica cards at Eternal Weekend for example.


    I think Lavinia seems suited for a midrange deck, maybe even some greedy 4c abomination like the red Leovold decks or Sylvan Mentor. Maybe you play "mono asymmetrical hate" with Lavinia, Leovold, Notion Thief, and Kambal for some ground pounders and some restricted draw spells, Stony Silence, and counters?

    I have long played red Leovold deck mixups like your standard greedy midrange/control, with and without tinker, and with the whole Grixis Thieves deck plus Leo. Thinking i'll get some white cards and try some nonsense for fun regardless of Lavinia pans out.



  • @guli

    Bring all the small critters you want, my Punishing Fires will handle it!!!!



  • @chubbyrain said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    As for the other designs, wizards had tried that template with kambal, harsh mentor, and others. Obviously they are aware they can design cards this way. Why do you think they chose not to?

    I think some of these cards like Kambal, mentor and activated abilities like on MoM might be played if there weren't other static ability hard hate problems. I think Wizards went the way they did because somebody in R&D declared they were going to make white powerful (not just in vintage) so they went w/ the most powerful hate mechanics they could. Sorry I can't find the thread, but there was a discussion about 2? years ago about a member of R&D stating exactly that - they wanted to beef up white.



  • @aeonsovarius said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    @wagner said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    At a time where most sets don't even include a Vintage playable card, I'm just always excited to see a new card that co

    No? I haven't been actually playing Vintage for too long, but there are a ton of new cards in Vintage for sure. I saw four Guilds of Ravnica cards at Eternal Weekend for example.

    Remember what those were? I'm guessing Assassin's Trophy, what else?



  • @wagner Niv Mizzet, Goblin Cratermaker and Molderhulk probably. Mission Briefing, Experimental Frenzy and Ral Zarek maybe. A lot of playables.



  • @wagner I saw Niv MIzzet (and i played a lot of Niv Mizzet Oath and still do), A Trophy, Mission Briefing (which i also play), Knight of Autumn. But @fsecco just reminded me of Cratermaker so i saw 5.

    And I didn't personally see Molderhulk, Frenzy, and Ral Zarek but those cards listed by fsecco also undoubtedly saw at least marginal experimental play.



  • @aeonsovarius said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

    Knight of Autumn

    Oh yeah, Survival is using that, right?



  • @fsecco I saw it being played in a Survival deck at EW, i haven't followed lists specifically to know how popular that is. Offhand i'm aware that Survival is a force of will/misstep deck lately.


 

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