Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade

This think is going to exhaserbate the mental misstep problem to new level.

Best answers for this card are bolt, plow, fatal push, and likely abrupt decay. 3 of them are countered by mm and then cannot be countered back because of her effect. Dismemeber gets affected by her abilities.

We may very well wind up in a meta where people need to run sudden shock and sulfur elementals to with these over the top hate bears.

@brass-man I think it's a one-sided CotV that hurts a lot of decks turn 1. Building a 4 Lavinia deck that tries to maximize the times it comes into play turn 1 is very viable (using even Petal, for example). Also, even in mid-late game, having Survival not able to chain Rootwallas and Hollow Ones is great. Although Vengevines still come into play if you cycle one Rootwalla into a Hollow One (even with Lavinia into play).

Against Shops, as I said, it's situational at best. If you're on the play having Lavinia turn 1 is great because it acts as a CotV on 0 AND stops turn 1 Spheres, which gives you a turn 2 free of disruption. Against Dredge it's the worst, since it only stops Dread Return, but we all know maindecks are not meant to beat Dredge anyway, so whatever.

@moorebrother1 why do you think it's even good in Legacy? What does this stop that makes you want to play it, even as a SB card?

last edited by fsecco

@brass-man said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

For what it's worth, I think there's a fair (but not airtight) argument that this could be a better anti-Outcome sideboard card than Stony Silence, which would immediately put this into some existing 75 card decks.

I think it actually wants the Kambal slot rather than Stony's. Am I wrong?

This card isn’t useless against Dredge. In fact if I were running Lavinia maindeck I wouldn’t board her out.

She’s not a hate card on her own, but she substantially weakens the power of Cabal Therapy and Dread Return. Therapies can still be flashed back to generate zombie tokens, but preventing the Dredge player from stripping your hand of proactive hate cards should not be underestimated.

@evouga It does nothing against Therapy though, because they'll always have at least a Bazaar in play (unless you're also packing Wastelands, but then we're talking about Humans or specific decks, not broad application).

EDIT: oh scratch that. Flashbacked Therapies cost no mana so they get countered. Ok that's good, I didn't catch that 😉

last edited by fsecco

Just the simple fact that the player who has this in play first gets to play thier Fow/Gush/MM for free while the other cannot is so powerful an effect. Even if your opponent has all the removals, if you get to fire off MMs while they are tapped out with multiples in hand, ugh? I honestly like the "can't play spells with cc>lands in play" clause, but the no free spells, one sided nonetheless, insane.

There goes any chance of my bounty of the hunt deck to work 😕

last edited by Serracollector

@fsecco depends on the deck but I would run one of each in my Kaya control list. People get too caught up in arguing about which card is better that I think they forget about diminishing returns and the advantage of card diversity when decks run tutors.

Also on cell so might have missed context. If so, mea culpa.

@chubbyrain If you have 2 slots I totally agree. But my point is: suppose you have 1 SB slot for either Kambal or Lavinia. Which would you play? I'm not saying it's Lavinia, but it's not a given which answer is right. I don't think the same is true for Lavinia x Stony. You'd probably play Stony in that SB slot before Lavinia, in the current meta.

@gutocmtt
All the more reason to keep Goblin Cratermaker around!

Isn't Phyrexian mana still mana whether you pay a blue or pay 2 life?

@countdabubba said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

Isn't Phyrexian mana still mana whether you pay a blue or pay 2 life?

No it isn't. If you play Dismember over Trinisphere, you either play 1BB, 2B + 2 life or 3 + 4 life.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

I think it actually wants the Kambal slot rather than Stony's. Am I wrong?

I wasn't really thinking of any deck that has both Kambal and Stony Silence, I just meant "a card that you run just for the Outcome matchup. All I was trying to say is that the card makes sense as a dedicated anti-Outcome card, just as Stony Silence and Kambal do.

However, I suppose if you actually were playing both Kambal and Stony and wanted to replace one of them, it would be better to draw both Lavinia and Kambal than it would be to draw both Lavinia and Stony (as they get the most of their mileage out of shutting off the same set of Moxes).

If you're using Stony/Kambal for matchups other than Outcome then of course the question gets more complicated.

@brass-man

Dredge cant play dread return, and gets its cabal therapies/hollow ones countered. If it decides to remove it, they lose their bridges. This is definitely not a card you want to see.

Survival hands that are focused on Bazaar, similarly, do not work well against this card. Survival is also fully powered and usually reliant on that mana for its speed.

Shops cares about this if you get turn 1 on the play. It loses all its moxen/crypt/chalice 0 until it manages to get 2 lands to play a Spheres/Thorn. This also slows Rod and Chalice 1.

So every single one of these decks is slowed, significantly depending on the hand and who wins the die role.

last edited by vaughnbros

Also planeswalkers will be quite adversely effected. Rarely does one see Dack or Jace cast strictly off lands. Let alone Teferi.

The significant impact will be on counterspells however, as others have pointed out.

Within the scenario of this creature being in play:

  1. Mental Misstep wars become decidedly uneven.

  2. Force of Will is essentially uncastable.

  3. Mindbreak Trap costs it's CMC.

  4. Mana Drain mana only casts creatures.

  5. Fluster and Spell Pierce uneffected

Interesting times ahead.

@vaughnbros I think I didn't clarify my position well enough before. I agree that the card should have some impact against most decks ... I just think that impact isn't particularly exciting for the cost of a card. When I said that a deck would be happy to see it, I meant that I would be glad if my opponent had this instead of some other, unknown card ... like how if my opponent used a Swords to Plowshares on a Monk token, I would be happy - my board position is objectively worse, but I'm happy because a second ago, I assumed that card was something scarier. Similarly, a Dredge player might be happy to see a Deathrite Shaman.

I may be undervaluing the card against the field, because my default perspective is Xerox first, and then Workshops, and I suspect those are the two matchups where this card is at its worst. If I were playing more Outcome and Survival player then maybe my reaction would be different.

And of course, even a card with weak applications across a number of matchups can still be valuable if its broad scope frees up space elsewhere in a deck.

last edited by Brass Man

@brass-man The thing that makes it hard to evaluate is that this card is easily maindeckable. Just like Deathrite rendered GY strategies much worse in Legacy not because it was the best hoser, but because it was a 4-of everywhere G1.
Against Shops and Xerox this is at it's worst, but even against them it has applications, specially if you land it very early. As I said before, you'll probably side them out on the draw against Shops, for example, but there are good reasons to leave them in on the play - just being able to get to your turn 2 knowing there is not going to be a Sphere or Rod in play is awesome.

Curious, thinking about all the cards this prevents or counters, how many of thoes are cards you would name with meddling mage in the course of a regular game?

We know MM sees play maindeck, and if the crossover is there I think it becomes pretty obvious that this is maindeckable.

This absolutley ruins a few modern and legacy decks too. As a living end player I weep.

I think this is on par with blood moon. I'm not too worried about it.

Even against Xerox, Lavinia significantly weakens Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Gush, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and all the artifact mana. That's 25% of the deck---that's not nothing.

last edited by evouga

@evouga It also makes dack fayden unable to come down before turn 3, and harder to protect with misstep.
I think this card will be huge in control mirrors. And obviously vs combo.

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