Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade

I think this is on par with blood moon. I'm not too worried about it.

Even against Xerox, Lavinia significantly weakens Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Gush, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and all the artifact mana. That's 25% of the deck---that's not nothing.

last edited by evouga

@evouga It also makes dack fayden unable to come down before turn 3, and harder to protect with misstep.
I think this card will be huge in control mirrors. And obviously vs combo.

I can't think of a single deck that she doesn't do something against. If Ravager Shops on the draw is her worst showing, landing her against a first turn Foundry Inspector still removes the line of turn two Inspector into a pile of free Ravagers and Revokers. It's not backbreaking, sure, but the beauty in this card is this incremental usage against the entire Vintage spectrum...

...and she pitches to Force of Will.

last edited by Guest

She does very little (except block) against humans/white eldrazi.

@fsecco Wrong. Phyrexian mana IS real mana. Mental Misstep will be castable through this card as long as you have at least 1 land in play as the opponent.

Begin rant:
If they continue to print maindeckable cards like these that prohibit specific prominent strategies, we'll eventually arrive at a point where the meta can't be anything but rock-paper-scissors with extra steps, except there will be more than just three archetypes in this awkwardly uninteractive relationship; the meta will be a boring mess.

It's bad enough now that we are expected to dedicate 4-6 sideboard cards against dredge, 3-4 cards against Shops (depending on your maindeck choices), and a bunch more to address the weaknesses of your specific deck.

Luckily for now, many of such sideboard cards can address multiple archetypes, allowing relatively frugal use of sideboard slots. But with each viable newly printed card that lops off a specific strategy from a match, affected decks would need to cram more sideboard cards into the already tight sideboard to compensate. If the invalidated cards are powerful cards that require and reward building around outside of such matchups, the affected decks would need to rely on 1-of or 2-of silver bullet sideboard cards, or give up sideboard cards for other bad matchups that are bound to exist.

Decks becoming obsolete is a common occurrence. But when strategies that are employed by a significant portion of the meta becomes heavily hindered or turned off by not just a few sideboard cards, but 10's and 20's of maindeck, possibly uncounterable, one-sided non-artifact creatures (for which there is no Hurkyl's Recall equivalent) like Kambal, Leovold, Thalia 2, and so on, in addition to the usual spells, enchantments and artifacts, how many negatively affected players will feel compelled to continue playing Vintage?

Even the decks that play these cards themselves will lose to coin toss, rather than skill, too many times in mirror matches. And how many pointless Karakas ping pong games will be played before people decide this game isn't worth their time anymore?

If printing cards like this were a unique or uncommon instance, it would be fine. But this card is the result of an ongoing trend of overpowered creatures that is set on turning every format into slow, creature-centric bore, where 'interaction' means hosing noncreature spells for as long as these cheap, one-sided permanents are in play, and turning them sideways.

Maybe this trend is a good thing for some players. But I can imagine a lot of people leaving the format if the trend continues and every fallout from Standard is allowed as a four-of for months after they are released. Restricting potentially broken new cards and determining if they should be unrestricted over a period of time doesn't seem like such a bad idea anymore.
End rant

@juice-mane Given a long enough timeline, the best deck will eventually be comprised of 75 restricted cards. It's the nature of the format. Luckily, for now, the printing of Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is powerful but not the killing blow to the format. She's just forces adaptation.

What I cannot figure out is how this card is good in Standard. It is kind of ok in Modern. Wizards is allowing card design break older formats but offer little to no value in their more “current” formats.

Standard is still a turn creature sideways format and it is dumb and boring. Modern is a faster turn dude sideways format or I destroy all your stuff but still little to no stack interaction.

Is Wizards getting away from the stack? The higher order in Magic has always been to figure out how to win quickly and out maneuver your opponent. Cards like this do offer some options for containing or restricting those approaches but offer no thinking of how to maneuver, it’s a blunt tool not a fine instrument.

I am just confused by what is supposed to be fun play or what the point of this card is.

I guess there is more hype around the card than utilization so we will see what happens. Damping Sphere was a huge fail.

last edited by moorebrother1

@countdabubba said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

Isn't Phyrexian mana still mana whether you pay a blue or pay 2 life?

@stormanimagus said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

@fsecco Wrong. Phyrexian mana IS real mana. Mental Misstep will be castable through this card as long as you have at least 1 land in play as the opponent.

"Phyrexian Mana" doesn't actually exist. Only the Phyrexian Mana Symbol does.

107.4f. Phyrexian mana symbols are colored mana symbols: {W/P} is white, {U/P} is blue, {B/P} is black, {R/P} is red, and {G/P} is green. A Phyrexian mana symbol represents a cost that can be paid either with one mana of its color or by paying 2 life.

Funny thought about this card. From the 2018-09-25 B&R update:

Workshop decks have become more and more popular. However, too many games are effectively decided by the first player's first turn. A major problem is that a turn-one Chalice of the Void for 0 deprives the opponent an opportunity to put Moxen on the battlefield. While players can adapt by not playing Moxen, the point of the format is to provide a place to play those cards. Chalice of the Void is restricted.

How easily this can be changed to be about this card:

Workshop Blue decks have become more and more popular. However, too many games are effectively decided by the first player's first turn. A major problem is that a turn-one Chalice of the Void for 0 Lavinia, Azorious Renegade deprives the opponent an opportunity to put Moxen on the battlefield. While players can adapt by not playing Moxen, the point of the format is to provide a place to play those cards. Chalice of the Void Lavinia, Azorious Renegade is restricted.

@thecravenone said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

How easily this can be changed to be about this card:

Workshop Blue decks have become more and more popular. However, too many games are effectively decided by the first player's first turn. A major problem is that a turn-one Chalice of the Void for 0 Lavinia, Azorious Renegade deprives the opponent an opportunity to put Moxen on the battlefield. While players can adapt by not playing Moxen, the point of the format is to provide a place to play those cards. Chalice of the Void Lavinia, Azorious Renegade is restricted.

Lavinia is very different from CotV, though. CotV costs 0, Lavinia costs UW, which makes her not a 100% turn 1 play. Also, she can be answered in every color with 0 cost (Karakas), whereas against Chalice you need green or red if you want to kill it turn 1 (for 1 mana and a tempo loss).

So UW control with Lavinia in it seems pretty absurd. You can counter everything but opponents can't FoW or misstep back. Throw in wastelands to keep the opponent's land count down and caverns to safely land Lavinia and other humans (Snapcaster, baby Jace and finisher Mentor) and you're good to go : )

@evouga said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

She does very little (except block) against humans/white eldrazi.

Well, if I come up against humans or w eldrazi I'll side her out.

@khahan said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

@evouga said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

She does very little (except block) against humans/white eldrazi.

Well, if I come up against humans or w eldrazi I'll side her out.

I'll also disagree. Turn 1 Lavinia stops Thalia or an early TKS (because they can't use Moxen or Crypt for it. This gives you a huge tempo boost. I'd side her out on the draw, but probably leave in on the play.

Why do people continue to mention turn 1 Lavinia like that is a thing?! Are you all mental?!! You can literally only do that with turn 1 mox pearl, mox sapphire, lotus petal or black lotus. That is it. She isn't going to be entering the battlefield turn 1 that often. Jeez.

@stormanimagus said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

Why do people continue to mention turn 1 Lavinia like that is a thing?! Are you all mental?!! You can literally only do that with turn 1 mox pearl, mox sapphire, lotus petal or black lotus. That is it. She isn't going to be entering the battlefield turn 1 that often. Jeez.

That sounds like it’s a thing.

Isn't @CHA1N5 gonna build a Lavinia + Spell Queller deck? Come on, man.

@baishuu off of 4 specific cards (one of which most decks don't run in Lotus Petal)? That is most decidedly NOT a thing if you are a deck designer at all. That is an "oops I have it" kind of thing, not a "I can reliably do this" kind of thing. People were comparing this card to Chalice @0 earlier and I'm just trying to point out that that will NOT be its function most of the time. Moxen are going to have their moment in the sun on turn 1 more than likely most of the time. Where I see this being interesting is in stopping later game topdecked moxen or tutors for Lotus being as powerful.

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