After testing various iterations with Lavinia my thoughts are that the card shines best in Prison Humans.

Click here to see what I am running

I don't understand the inclination to put lavinia with other hatebear creatures. She is a hate bear that is good in normal blue decks by virtue of being asymmetrical, and she actively doesn't synergize with the best hatebear in Thalia 1.0.

@garbageaggro

Are you actually asking to explain you the reasoning behind the addition of Lavinia or are you just criticizing or shocked that people are putting Lavinia where she belongs, in a aggro control deck?

I already explained the reason with 1 sentence, and the key words are land destruction or Prison (works well with Lavinia). I do not think running Lavinia in SB of some blue random nonsense deck is the way to go to make her shine.

@guli said in Lavinia Humans:

Are you actually asking to explain you the reasoning behind the addition of Lavinia or are you just criticizing or shocked that people are putting Lavinia where she belongs, in a aggro control deck?

Let me put it this way, while the way to "make her shine" might be in a deck with a bunch of creatures, the most likely way for her to be successful is in a deck that is already powerful, using her as another angle of attack (see the decks from the past week's VSL) rather than in an archetype that hasn't been traditionally successful in vintage, in which it has some dyssynergy with the most previously successful card in the deck in Thalia.

Maybe this is the right shell, but I don't think by any means we should take for granted because Lavinia is a creature with the human type that this is the shell that makes the most sense. As you said "an aggro control deck" might be the best shell, so why not start with the best aggro control deck in the format in Xerox as a home.

I'm with garbageaggro on this one in that i'm not convinced the best shell for lavinia is aggro humans. At least not as we know it. I was play testing somebody on cockatrice the other day who landed a turn 1 lavinia against me. My hand was tolarian, 2x mox, sol ring for mana. He landed a turn 2 thalia. My fetch grabbed a land, tapped for a mox, tapped for a mox. Turn 3 I drop sol ring, drop tolarian and drop my own lavinia. Ended up drawing 2 more lands very quickly and went to town with PO. If he hadn't played thalia, he probably would have won that game. Thalia + Lavinia in the same deck is like putting jitte + null rod in a deck.

@guli said in Lavinia Humans:

I already explained the reason with 1 sentence

One sentence does not make a particularly good explanation. You shared your conclusion that Lavinia is best in a "Prison Humans" shell, but did not share the process that led you to that conclusion.

last edited by revengeanceful

This tangent is kind of off topic, but i agree with the statement that Lavinia is probably best just slottet into a already succesful archetype. I think Xerox is the best shell to play her. However, the card is not exclusive, you can use her in different decks, and just because there probably exists a better shell does not mean you should not try her in others. So keep on brewing

@revengeanceful
It is not that hard, the less lands the opponent has the stronger Lavinia is.

@garbageaggro

I am pretty sure Lavinia is good in any deck that can support her in the current meta.
However, to exploit her ability to the fullest, recurring wasteland strategies are in my opinion the best way to go.

A card like Stifle also comes to mind as an additional way to lower the land count of your opponent.

So this is a 'value' humans list that I designed and am trying out these days

0_1549999589880_5CSaheeliHumans.JPG

Here is the link if you prefer written version or if the picture is not HD enough for you:
5C Saheeli Humans

I was running Felidar instead of Huntmaster and it might still be a good idea. But Huntmaster feels good as well. When you add 1 Felidar you want more Saheeli and then you want more Felidar. So I just want to keep the focus as much as possible. Grind them out and make value. Counter key tier 1 strategies in the process.

last edited by Guli

It's an interesting list @Guli. I don't mean to distract from it but I think what Lavinia does is that it provides a way of breaking from the traditional Thalia shell (which has never been my preference), especially since Thalia and Lavinia do not work well together. I have been experimenting with a Dark Bant Humans list and am planning on streaming this list in a couple of hours:

Again, I'm new to the wide and wonderful world of hatebears, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on the list,. The deck was challenging to build and I would appreciate whatever insight you could offer. A brief breakdown of the list:

  • The manabase is ambitious. I omitted Tundra because it could not cast Deathrite Shaman and Bayou because it could not cast Lavinia (and Karakas because I did not think it was worth the strain on the manabase). I've also gone back and forth on Black Lotus - yeah, best card in the game and all, but it's often a Lotus Petal in the deck given the significant color requirements. The Caverns are worth it IMO as uncounterable Leovolds and Lavinias are quite strong against Blue decks in the format. In general I tried to stick to the creature types of "Human" and "Elf" for the majority of creatures, especially in the 1-2 drop range. Once you get to 3 mana, you are more likely to have more colors available and it's easier to cast things like Knight of Autumn, Deputy, and Ramunap, all of which I think are quite strong in the current metagame.
  • The spell base is designed at providing early interaction since we don't always have a turn 1 Thalia or Stony with this list. Thoughtseize also functions well with JVP and Green Sun's Zenith is fetchable off of Spellseeker even if you cast it turn 1 for a Deathrite Shaman. DT was a late addition but helps establish a Strip lock or other plays.
  • The sideboard is centered on combating Shops, which I expect to be one of the more difficult matchups, and Dredge. I basically implemented the strategy that Survival uses against Shops of Stony and Energy Flux, with some spot removal for Revoker sprinkled in. I don't consider Thoughtseize to be very good against Shops so will typically board out at least 7 cards in the 4 Missteps and 3 Thoughtseizes. 7 clear cards can come in in STP, Stony x 2, Flux x 2, and Claim x 2. It's a matter of preference but I board out Leos on the draw for Priests to try and bring down the curve and make the mana base better. Against Dredge, I think it's tempting to go all in on the hate bear approach and just slam 4 Priest and some number of Jailers (like Seth did in the VSL). I dislike that approach since it puts you in a bind if you are running Wasteland - do you hold your Waste to play a turn 2 Jailer or Waste on turn 1? With Crypt you can do both and not worry about having a Moxen to cast your Hatebear on turn 1 (or a Cavern to make sure it resolves). If they Force the Tormod's Crypt, you haven't lost as much tempo and can play a DRS or Bob and try to advance your game plan.

Just my thoughts. Hopefully this brew works out.

@ChubbyRain I like the idea a lot 😉 ! I was wondering if 4 Bob was too much with such a small amount of library manipulation and so many 3 drop creatures. I was wondering how cohesive or consistent it felt and if you thought that it could get its game-plan online quick enough to be effective versus the field. I know that Hatebears tend to not have a great clock, but I like the fact that this deck can just grind ridiculously hard with Tracker and Knight while being incredible threats in of themselves. I cannot wait to see it in action!

@chubbyrain I like the overall idea. I also think that there are 2 possible hatebears builds now. Thalia Hate and Lavinia Hate. The thing I like about shifting to Lavinia is that She allows you to play spells Thalia never really did. Misstep, Ancestral, PWs. I think there's a lot of room to explore there and your list seems like a good first try.

0-3 into 4-0. Magic is strange.

I cut Deputy for another JVP and DRS for a Tireless Tracker. I felt the deck needed more looting and high impact plays. The tracker might not be right but the additional JVP felt strong and with Lavinia stopping Force, you kind of get to do some nutty things on your turn.

Edit: Got the 5-0!

last edited by ChubbyRain

@ChubbyRain You are running 5C Humans man (which was never about running exclusively humans). Very small differences and nuances from the lists I am trying out. I love the path you have taken and the card choices are overall strong. You can always go sensei top and a planeswalker or two in these kind of approaches. But I must warn you, once you play Top in 5C Humans (which is also not about running 5 colors per see) you will include it in all the lists where you can shuffle your deck.

I personally am not a huge fan of Tireless Tracker. Maybe this can be Dovin.

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