The card seems decent, but the mana is rough.

last edited by Guest

@juice-mane I disagree. Ancient Grudge sees a lot of play.

@fsecco said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:

@juice-mane I disagree. Ancient Grudge sees a lot of play.

This needs r/g at the same time. Grudge sees play because its R now and G later and its card efficient as well.
Still, with as prominent as shops is, RUG could certainly make use of this enchantment. Certainly seems worthy of testing out.

@khahan We don't play Taigas, so the "R now G later" must come from two different sources anyway. I guess the only currently played cards that do both are Mox Opal and Orchard.

last edited by fsecco

Dumb question. Is one damage per non creature spell enough to stop the decks this wants to stop? It feels like it would be but there are certainly some decks that can storm down to 1 life and win with this in play.

@protoaddct it sure isn't. That's the whole Kambal vs this debate. But against PO for example, it makes them more aware of their plays AND you can also sacrifice this to destroy one of their artifacts if you think it's the best approach.

@fsecco said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:

@protoaddct it sure isn't. That's the whole Kambal vs this debate. But against PO for example, it makes them more aware of their plays AND you can also sacrifice this to destroy one of their artifacts if you think it's the best approach.

I guess my point is making them think about their plays with damage is not relevant if your not planning to back it up with finishers and putting them to 0. This card seems to me like it would be far better in a deck with lightning bolts than one that plans on winning with key/vault or off a walker is all.

Echoing the sentiment on Lavinia is WotC just done with symmetric hate effects? Not that it's likely with this card but the Blue Stew (tm) just co-opts the cards into their sideboards. Like Kambahl which would be a great core creature in a "new" deck it just becomes a boring hoser in a PO mirror.

RIP Gaddock Teeg and Thalia

last edited by nedleeds

@nedleeds said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:

Echoing the sentiment on Lavinia is WotC just done with symmetric hate effects?

Getting rid of Shroud for Hexproof was pretty much proof of that in my eyes.

I wouldn't be surprised if WotC wants players to dump their entire hand and just play with permanents and their activated abilities. I guess they think stack interactions and complicated board states (that symmetrical effects contribute to) don't look good for potential casual players.

It's not enough on it's own, which is why you need to put it in an aggressive shell like Delver that forces the opponent to worry about their life total. It's an enchantment, which pumps Tarmogoyf. I think there is potential here in a RUG shell with the usual metagame caveats applying. I know given the fact I played the same Survival player 7 out of 9 times in the MTGO leagues, I wouldn't mind having main deck enchantment/artifact removal that doubles as burn.against Xerox and PO

@Juice-Mane They printed arclight phoenix, thousand year storm, a 2 mana rune-snag...
@nedleeds Tocatli Honar Guard isn't symmetrical...

These hatebear and hatebear-like discussions are really just becoming tedious displays of selection bias.

@chubbyrain Obviously there was some exaggeration in my last post. However, I don't think you can in good faith argue that WotC hasn't been tending towards printing asymmetrical 'hate' cards. Mentioning just a few newer cards that incentivize the use of non-creature spells hardly undermines what people have been saying here at all, when a majority of the more powerful 'hate' cards printed recently have been asymmetrical. It's a little ironic that you mention selection bias in this context.

If players don't consistently discuss what they like and dislike about cards, how is WotC going to get meaningful feedback? The Vintage player base is marginal, but at least here the people involved in making cards can see a relatively more thoughtful discussion about their decisions than in other places of discussion.

Asymmetrical, aggressively costed graveyard hate cards have existed since the Dark.

@vaughnbros Nobody is denying that. People, including myself, are saying that they don't like WotC's increased tendency to print such cards in the past few years. I won't belabor my point further. We're just repeating the same pattern of miscommunication at this point.

last edited by Guest

@juice-mane

The point is the original hate cards were actually mostly designed to be asymmetrical. Including the still played, Tormod's crypt, but also you could factor in all the color hate cards that wouldn't affect the user, like Karma and others.

There have also pretty much always been symmetrical hate cards too, and still are.

So no new trend is happening. This is what has always been. The "trend" you are viewing is selection bias.

I'll move the following post to the Lavinia thread if other users find it distracting:
@vaughnbros I'm willing to accept that no new trend is happening if someone has the time to come up with statistics comparing the percentage of asymmetrical 'hate' cards in older sets to that in newer sets.

But I wouldn't say there is selection bias underlying my perception when I can and have looked at the entirety of the more popular sets, both old and new, that are available to view on Scryfall. That's all insignificant semantics though. I get what you mean.

My impression is that, before this perceived trend started taking place, hate cards often (not always) had counterparts or cards that nullified their effects. For example, Tormod's Crypt has Feldon's Cane, Acid Rain has Tsunami, and so on. The point is that these counterpart cards were made consistently enough that you could expect to see answers for newly printed hate cards with good reason.

Considering the previous few sets, would you expect WotC to print a counterpart to Lavinia, that maybe costed UB, that said: "Each opponent can’t cast non-sorcery and non-instant spells with converted mana cost greater than the number of lands that player controls"?

Had they printed a card like Lavinia before this perceived trend started taking place, I think they would've printed a counterpart to Lavinia worded similarly to above. I don't expect to see such a card being printed in current sets, considering the cards they've been printing recently. There would be an 'outrage' on reddit every day.

So, based on those (unsubstantiated) impressions, I find it difficult to believe that WotC hasn't been incentivizing having permanents in play, at the cost of discouraging holding cards in hand. What I perceive as the problem with the newer cards is that the asymmetrical hate cards are backed by an asymmetrical design approach.

last edited by Guest

@juice-mane said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:

I'll move the following post to the Lavinia thread if other users find it distracting:
@vaughnbros I'm willing to accept that no new trend is happening if someone has the time to come up with statistics comparing the percentage of asymmetrical 'hate' cards in older sets to that in newer sets.

But I wouldn't say there is selection bias underlying my perception when I can and have looked at the entirety of the more popular sets, both old and new, that are available to view on Scryfall. That's all insignificant semantics though. I get what you mean.

My impression is that, before this perceived trend started taking place, hate cards often (not always) had counterparts or cards that nullified their effects. For example, Tormod's Crypt has Feldon's Cane, Acid Rain has Tsunami, and so on. The point is that these counterpart cards were made consistently enough that you could expect to see answers for newly printed hate cards with good reason.

Considering the previous few sets, would you expect WotC to print a counterpart to Lavinia, that maybe costed UB, that said: "Each opponent can’t cast non-sorcery and non-instant spells with converted mana cost greater than the number of lands that player controls"?

Had they printed a card like Lavinia before this perceived trend started taking place, I think they would've printed a counterpart to Lavinia worded similarly to above. I don't expect to see such a card being printed in current sets, considering the cards they've been printing recently. There would be an 'outrage' on reddit every day.

So, based on those (unsubstantiated) impressions, I find it difficult to believe that WotC hasn't been incentivizing having permanents in play, at the cost of discouraging holding cards in hand. What I perceive as the problem with the newer cards is that the asymmetrical hate cards are backed by an asymmetrical design approach.

Except you totally miss the point of Lavinia if you think your proposed counterpart would do anything other than be relegated to the junk rare binder. Lavinia is good because non-creature based decks are CONSTANTLY trying to cheat on mana with moxen. Creature based decks rarely do this as much and would, thus, probably play right through a piece of garbage card like the one you proposed.

OMFG let's please stop this nonsense complaining? For real, just deal with it. We can't let every discussion on New cards or restrictions be like this. Come on.

Wizards is doing a great job keeping a game alive for 26 years. Things change. New cards are released all the time and they need to be new. We can't be whining "this shouldn't have been printed" all the time. It did get printed, do your best to break it and have fun.

Don't like it? A lot of other people don't like it too. They play Old School. It's awesome.

last edited by fsecco

These hatebear and hatebear-like discussions are really just becoming tedious displays of selection bias.

What is a hatebear like discussion?

We have Leovold, Kambhal now Lavinia. While I recognize they pale in comparison to eternal powerhouse Tacotli Honor Guard they are examples of cards I'd rather have seen symmetric. Since around Thalia 1.0 it's been trending this way with some exceptions like SotL, Containment Priest and Red Eidolon.

I would prefer cards that make the deck builder create the shell of the deck around a taxing / punishing constraint rather than just shuffle them into the same tired 4xforce, 4xskillstep, 4xPreordain, Nx Blue Restricted 45 card stack. My preference is selection bias I guess.

last edited by nedleeds
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