SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show

@smmenen
I think people don't like to acknowledge shops. If they did they would probably play it and be less biased against the archetype.

last edited by John Cox

@john-cox said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

@smmenen
I think people don't like to acknowledge shops. If they did they would probably play it and be less biased against the archetype.

True.

I also think that it's also about salience. When PO wins a tournament, it's a more salient and prominent accomplishment. When Shops wins a tournament, I suppose that is "as expected," and fades into the background, narratively speaking.

I try to keep myself honest when evaluating what is actually the 'best deck,' by hewing to the facts. True, those facts can be arranged in different configurations depending on criteria, but I think a holistic POV shows that Shops, not PO, was really the best deck of 2018.

@smmenen I did not do a very good job making a point there. I was trying to say that the deck really developed into it's own this year. Your point that there were highs and lows is very valid but for a deck like PO winning EW is it's pinnacle. If the deck would ever be a deck of the year it would be this year.

The decklist that you provided is more of a precursor for Thieves not PO, but I do not want to get into deck discussion.

Looking at old blue based combo decks you get more into Academy and Prosperity over some that runs 8 to 10 counters like Tezzeret or Gifts Ungiven decks if you want to compare how the decks play and how they win.

@moorebrother1 said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

@smmenen I did not do a very good job making a point there. I was trying to say that the deck really developed into it's own this year. Your point that there were highs and lows is very valid but for a deck like PO winning EW is it's pinnacle. If the deck would ever be a deck of the year it would be this year.

The decklist that you provided is more of a precursor for Thieves not PO, but I do not want to get into deck discussion.

Turbo Tezzeret ran 2-4 Opals, 2-3 Sensei's Tops, and 0-4 Grim Monoliths. That's almost exactly the configuration for PO decks. I don't see how you think Turbo Tez is a precursor for Thieves, and not PO. The only real functional difference between PO and Turbo Tez is 4 PO instead of 3-4 Tez.

As for Grixis Thieves, Marc Lanigra's Grixis deck from the 2012 Championship is much more of a genealogical ancestor to Grixis Thieves.

@smmenen said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

Turbo Tezzeret ran 2-4 Opals, 2-3 Sensei's Tops, and 0-4 Grim Monoliths. That's almost exactly the configuration for PO decks. I don't see how you think Turbo Tez is a precursor for Thieves, and not PO. The only real functional difference between PO and Turbo Tez is 4 PO instead of 3-4 Tez.

I was trying to let this go but this bugs me a bit. PO decks look very similar to Xerox decks with the exception of less counter magic plus Mox Opal and PO.

The Tezzeret decks were really just mana drain decks that played the same strategy we see in Grixis just without the Red.

last edited by moorebrother1

@moorebrother1 said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

@smmenen said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

Turbo Tezzeret ran 2-4 Opals, 2-3 Sensei's Tops, and 0-4 Grim Monoliths. That's almost exactly the configuration for PO decks. I don't see how you think Turbo Tez is a precursor for Thieves, and not PO. The only real functional difference between PO and Turbo Tez is 4 PO instead of 3-4 Tez.

I was trying to let this go but this bugs me a bit. PO decks look very similar to Xerox decks with the exception of less counter magic plus Mox Opal and PO.

The Tezzeret decks were really just mana drain decks that played the same strategy we see in Grixis just without the Red.

Xerox decks run 18-22 mana sources. Big blue mana drain type decks like Slaver, Gifts, Tez, and PO run 24-28.

Xerox decks run tempo finishers like Mentor, Pyromancer, Dryad, and Delver. Historically they run 4-8 such creatures. Big blue decks, and contrast run 1-3 late game win conditions, like Serra Angel, Morphling, Tezzeret, Tog, Tinker Bots, etc.

PO is not - and has never been - a Xerox deck. Just because it uses preordain does not make it a xerox deck any more than when DPS does.

If you line up the TurboTez deck itโ€™s almost identical in form and function to PO decks.

Grixis thieves is just the latest version of the Bob /Jace big blue deck, which came into existence when thirst was restricted, The Tez players replaced thirst with dark confidant.

last edited by Smmenen

@smmenen This is where a thread forum does not help conversation. I think we are closer to agreement than discord. My stance is that TurboTez is not a combo deck.

I look at PO as similar to the Gifts Ungiven decks that were restricted out of existence and around the same time period Time Vault was changed back to original text and Tezzeret was printed. The style of TurboTez was never similar to PO which has a focus combo finish. PO decks are not even running Vault/Key anymore.

I wish we could sit down discuss this over a beer but for now I'll have to leave it where it is. Thanks for the chat.

@moorebrother1 said in SMIP Podcast # 86: The 2018 Vintage Year in Review & Moxies Award Show:

@smmenen This is where a thread forum does not help conversation. I think we are closer to agreement than discord. My stance is that TurboTez is not a combo deck.

I look at PO as similar to the Gifts Ungiven decks that were restricted out of existence and around the same time period Time Vault was changed back to original text and Tezzeret was printed. The style of TurboTez was never similar to PO which has a focus combo finish. PO decks are not even running Vault/Key anymore.

I wish we could sit down discuss this over a beer but for now I'll have to leave it where it is. Thanks for the chat.

My entire History of Vintage book is on this subject ๐Ÿ™‚ So this isn't a beer topic for me; it's more of an academic pursuit.

While there are some hybrid lists out there, like Brian Coval's, most of the PO decks are not combo decks in the sense of a Restricted List Combo School deck.

The hallmarks of those decks are Draw7s like Wheel, Twister, Jar, Mind's Desire and Tendrils as a win condition. Reid Duke's PO Storm deck IS such a combo deck, but the vast majority of the PO decks in the Vintage Challenge top 8s don't play those cards.

That doesn't mean that PO doesn't feel like a combo deck, but so did Turbo Tezzeret. It's just archetypally distinct from the Prosperity/Academy decks, and their progeny.

@smmenen This is where I we have more to discuss. The Justin Gennari deck from Waterbury is a world apart from the Brian Coval deck that won Worlds. The decks may overlap on 95% of the card base but the decks play differently.

This is where I believe we differ in opinion. I have been a student of every PO deck since the card was printed, I study every list and I have about 4 working version going.

The decks that run Time Vault are similar to Turbo Tez but the Brian Coval list which is similar to the Stephen Quinn version from SCG Con is the Storm version and that version works better in the meta-game of 2018.

It comes down to number of rounds that you expect to play. I know you are a very good storm player so you get the math on consistency of the deck versus broken game play.

The more consistent versions of the deck like Justin's stopped winning. They were hated out of the meta-game that is what your lows show when it was falling off in the challenges. The Storm version of the deck played heavily by @thepowernine is what emerged as the better version of how to play PO in 2018.

The vast majority of the PO decks that have appeared in Top 8s of the Vintage Challenges in recent months look like I described.

Also, regarding what's performing well now, the breakdown of Vintage Challenge top 8s for January is as follows:

31% Shops
25% Xerox (almost entirely RUG, but 1 Jeskai)
9% PO
9% Dredge
9% Eldrazi
9% BUG
3% Survival
3% Oath

That's 100% of the decks that Top 8ed Challenges in January.

Pretty remarkable that PO goes from 35% of Top 8s in December to 9% in January.

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