The release of Modern Horizons has had a large impact on Pitch Dredge with the addition of Force of Vigor, Force of Negation and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis. Dredge has also had to adjust itself to the release of War of the Spark with Karn, the Great Creator and Narset, Parter of Veils and the release of Core Set 2020 with Mystic Forge. Versions of Pitch Dredge have been tested over the past couple of months with some very interesting results. Based on the latest Dredge decklists from www.mtggoldfish.com for the past three weeks, it seems as though there has been a popular Pitch Dredge decklist that can possibly be established as a primary decklist for Pitch Dredge.

The following decklist was found on www.mtggoldfish.com was found 11 times over the past three weeks that did well on various Vintage Challenges and Leagues out of 20 total Vintage Dredge Decks:

4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Hollow One
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ashen Rider

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Gitaxian Probe
4x Mental Misstep
3x Dread Return
2x Force of Vigor
4x Force of Will

4x Serum Powder
4x Bridge from Below
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Petrified Field

(sideboard varies)

Within the past three weeks there has been 4 decks that were the same as the above except for differing with 1-3 cards within the Vintage Challenges and Leagues.

So if you take the 11 decks that are the same, the 4 decks that are almost the same and there being a total of 20 Vintage Dredge Decks in the past three weeks of Vintage Challenges and Leagues; you basically have 75% of the decks being the same. This may be the new Pitch Dredge Deck.

Daniel Worobec

Does anyone have the math on finding bazaar with London and including 1,2,3, or 4 powders? I thought I remembered seeing it here but cant find it. Thx!

@illig719 in my thread I went over Frank Karsten's math, though it was just 0/4 powders.

@blindtherapy
That's what I was looking for thanks!

With misstep restricted, I'm seeing more Surgical Extractions. What do y'all think of adjusting the numbers of each dredger to make surgicals less effective?

My current dredgers and what they dredge for:
1x Golgari Grave Troll = 6 dredge
1x Golgari Thug = 4 dredge
4x Shambling Shell = 3 dredge each, 12 dredge total
4x Stinkweed Imp = 5 dredge each, 20 dredge total
Making a grand total of 42 dredge with 5 green cards and 9 black cards. With this list, opponent is most likely to see a 4-of dredger and get maximum value from a surgical.

Proposed dredgers to make Surgical a bit worse:
1x Golgari Grave Troll = 6 dredge
2x Golgari Thug = 4 dredge each, 8 dredge total
2x Shambling Shell = 3 dredge each, 6 dredge total
2x Greater Mossdog = 3 dredge each, 6 dredge total
3x Stinkweed Imp = 5 Dredge each, 15 dredge total
Dredge Total 41 with 5 green cards and 7 black cards. With this list an opponent is most likely to see a 2-of dredger, making our long-term chances of getting back in the game better.

@boogdish this seems like we are just slowing ourselves down overall in all matchups to avoid being slowed should the opponent draw and resolve a particular piece of hate under ideal circumstances.

Play more Dredgers than just 10. 14 is a good number if you want to be more immune to surgical+deathrite effects. You can diversify at the lower numbers if you find value in doing so. 1 Troll and 4 Stinkweed is pretty much going to be standard.

I would always start with 1 GGT, 4 Stinkweed 4 Thug and only cut any of those if you had a specific reason for doing so

@psyburat

I don’t claim that my build is correct but I claim my decision is correct in my build.

The reason is I don’t like loosing to sphere into cage from shops so I run more unmasks.

@botvinik said in Pitch Dredge:

@psyburat

I don’t claim that my build is correct but I claim my decision is correct in my build.

Playing less than 4 vigor in your 75 in dredge is incorrect. Can you explain what about your build makes you not want to be capable of beating shops, or any grave hate, or PO?

@psyburat

Also if I cam off as demeaning to his skill as a dredge builder and pilot that was not my intention. I respond to you because you were the one who pointed it out to me but if I have offended you @notmi my apologies I never intended to demean you an any way.

@botvinik said in Pitch Dredge:

The reason is I don’t like loosing to sphere into cage from shops so I run more unmasks.

I actually really like unmask in dredge, it's one of the most undervalued pieces of interaction imo. When I got second in the challenge with dredge I was playing 4 total copies of it in my 75.
This is a clickable link to my challenge deck

Wait you are a dredge expert right? Can you tell my why no one plays flamekin zealot anymore?

Where you have FOV I have disrupting shoal. There are some other small differences but that is what I included instead of FOV.

@botvinik said in Pitch Dredge:

Wait you are a dredge expert right? Can you tell my why no one plays flamekin zealot anymore?

Actually, with the advent of tabernacle and surgical as the primary grave hate on mtgo, people have been experimenting with all kinds of different dread return targets. People tried a bit of zealot, but generally speaking flayer of the hatebound does the same thing, but without requiring you to attack, which comes up against golos most often.

Interestingly, most dredge pilots have settled on the idea that dread return isn't needed at all in current meta, because it was most impactful in mirrors for elish norn, and it's better to just be more robust with creeping chill and ichorids to beat tabernacle.

@botvinik said in Pitch Dredge:

Where you have FOV I have disrupting shoal. There are some other small differences but that is what I included instead of FOV.

I think vigor is straight up the best card printed for dredge in a very, very long time. Vigor itself was a large part of what got grave troll restricted, because it made the vigors so consistent that it became somewhat oppressive. I wouldn't register a 75 without 4 of them in my bazaar deck.

@botvinik One thing I think gives the nod to FoV over something like disrupting shoal or unmask is that you don't need to have the card at the time the opp has the answer - Unmask is notoriously bad vs topdecking, and shoal is really bad when drawn after the hate resolves (or in the case of Leyline). FoV, on the other hand, is at best a 2-for-2, whereas Unmask/Shoal are 2-for 1, and FoV is always useful at any point after hate resolves, not just in the small window when it is in the opp's hand or on the stack. FoV is one of the most potent anti-hate cards ever printed, and I'd have to agree that 4x is always correct when you can run the green count to support it.

Dredge is totally unplayable without Force of Vigor given all the decks running Leyline.

While in the abstract I think both of you are correct and it is almost certain that 4x is correct in the objectively best list. My local meta has shaken out in a way that I have found very unfriendly to the card. I face a very disproportionally high number of white eldrazi decks whitch both have nonartifact hate and sphere effects that turn vigor off. As for FKZ the reason these individuals like eldrazi is the next third of the meta fast combo: DPS, Doomsday, and rarely but sometimes PO. I value FKZ’s ability to declare me the victor on turn 2 or 3 instead of having to wait a turn when fighting these decks. Finally the shops. I have found shoal to be very helpful against these individuals and FOV to be quite underwhelming because with careful play they usually have a sphere before a cage/relic and if that happens while you have FOV you scoop where as shoals allow me to fight the sphere directly and then fight the cage effect. 5 shoals handles jailers and priests a lot better than FOV and I have found that to be highly relevant.

I will not claim this reasoning and my choices are correct but this is why I decided what I did and have the build I have.

last edited by Botvinik
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