Also leyline hurts a lot but my small corner of the world does not play a lot of them so it is not as severe a concern. And when they are played I still find the shoals very helpful in protecting the 4/4 beatdown plan.

last edited by Botvinik

You can play Force of Vigor through a sphere with a Rifstone Portal or a Petrified Field. Every 0 CMC spell will have that same problem and 1 CMC spells now cost 2... sphere is not a good justification to not play the card.

Then the dichotomy you have is forces and portals or extra dread returns and shoals and in my small Local Bubble of vintage I like where I stand on that division.

@vaughnbros

If it were no longer true that a number startling near to 33% of my local meta were white eldrazi I would be a lot more on board with your plan. Shoal stops containment preist force does not.

last edited by Botvinik

There are better GY decks to play against an Eldrazi heavy meta, like a Lands deck. If people are main decking hate then it’s a pretty bad choice.

I don’t really like lands. I don’t think it is particularly great and I don’t enjoy it. Plus and it may be a difference is experience I do a lot worse on lands than dredge and I don’t like the deck enough to want to learn. So at least for me no.

last edited by Botvinik

I will adapt my deck rather than switching. And it haven’t even been all that unsuccessful I am comfortably above 50 with the deck.

last edited by Botvinik

Hogaak specifically would absolutely smash a white eldrazi meta, if that's anything you're interested in.

Is there a good primer for that deck I am struggling to figure out how to mulligan with it and has resulted in me struggling to differentiate between lucky games and smart play.

I feel like mulling to bazaar is wrong or I would run 4 serum powders but all my non bazaar hands have felt somewhere between slow and bad.

@psyburat posted a small tournament report he placed second in with the deck. Asking focused questions there should get you good answers. Failing that, the vintage streaming discord is always a good source for information about a deck.

@botvinik Mulling to bazaar is almost always what the deck wants to do. So much so, I think they can just call it "Mull to Bazaar.dec". Without that key engine card, dredging is uber slow, Hollow One is uncastable, and Hogaak will rarely land. Without bazaar, you basically will not win until turn 7+, and that's just too slow.

In regards to jailer/priest, you could run sickening shoal out of the SB (or main if it is such a big thing in your meta), which is turned on by so many more cards in dredge and relieves reliance on blue as well as having the shoal at the exact moment they cast the hate. Leyline and cage are such a big thing in Vintage on a universal level, it's hard to see not playing 4x FoV (your meta seems very warped and narrow). Even vs spheres, a single mana in play lets you kill the sphere AND cage in one shot. Shoal means you might answer the sphere, but then need a 2nd shoal + blue card to hit the cage, which is a tall order. running a petrified field, which is good to get back bazaar anyway, or a copy or two of riftstone portal is fine for just the single mana you need to 2-for-2 the opp playing spheres.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in Pitch Dredge:

@botvinik Mulling to bazaar is almost always what the deck wants to do. So much so, I think they can just call it "Mull to Bazaar.dec". Without that key engine card, dredging is uber slow, Hollow One is uncastable, and Hogaak will rarely land. Without bazaar, you basically will not win until turn 7+, and that's just too slow.

In regards to jailer/priest, you could run sickening shoal out of the SB (or main if it is such a big thing in your meta), which is turned on by so many more cards in dredge and relieves reliance on blue as well as having the shoal at the exact moment they cast the hate. Leyline and cage are such a big thing in Vintage on a universal level, it's hard to see not playing 4x FoV (your meta seems very warped and narrow). Even vs spheres, a single mana in play lets you kill the sphere AND cage in one shot. Shoal means you might answer the sphere, but then need a 2nd shoal + blue card to hit the cage, which is a tall order. running a petrified field, which is good to get back bazaar anyway, or a copy or two of riftstone portal is fine for just the single mana you need to 2-for-2 the opp playing spheres.

In regards to hagaak, mulling to bazaar is terrible advice. It's a 4 drs fetchlands deck for a reason.

The Hogaak deck is an offshoot from Dredge and Survival decks essentially getting merged. With how a lot of people have it built, the deck does kind of need Bazaar, but some adjustment can be made to it to play better as a controlish deck. The builds with more Ouphes and Vigors are better for that, in my opinion. Those decks can keep mana denial hands without Bazaar and run down that route.

I had played Hermit Druid in these builds, prior to them getting so popular, in the slot of the stitchers. You have to add a couple basic Forests to the deck to not mill yourself though.

last edited by vaughnbros

@notmi I'm thinking more along the lines of traditional pitch dredge - not the DRS/bazaar/survival type builds. That's a totally different deck imo. If you are running dredgers and dread returns for FKZ or something like that, then it is almost certainly more like traditional dredge than hogaak/vine/drs builds.

@thewhitedragon69 said in Pitch Dredge:

@notmi I'm thinking more along the lines of traditional pitch dredge - not the DRS/bazaar/survival type builds. That's a totally different deck imo. If you are running dredgers and dread returns for FKZ or something like that, then it is almost certainly more like traditional dredge than hogaak/vine/drs builds.

We were specifically talking about hogaak and not dredge

since this is the dredge thread, I will just point out that, independent of metagame changes making dread return less good or necessary in general, Flame-Kin Zealot as a haste target in particular has been mostly superceded by Dragonlord Kolaghan(pitches to ichorid, unmask, etc) and Maelstrom Wanderer(pitches to blue and green forces)

Flayer of the Hatebound is probably the best finisher since it has reach, and smaller amounts than 20 can be used to wipe your opponents board.

Griselbrand, Muldrotha I think are the best facilitators since they can win on their own. Muldrotha you can easily grind out wins (2 Hollow Ones every turn, and a landfall) and Griselbrand plays well with all the pitch spells to buy time.

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