Is anyone enjoying this new meta?

If I'm on PO, I'd rather be facing Lavinia than stony silence or Chalice of the void all day.

Lavinia is not an oppressive card in most games by any means. I'm sure the vast majority of TMDers will agree with me about enjoying the format in 4 lodestone golem 4 chalice metagames which were far more oppressive than Lavinia can ever hope to be.

It's better for wizards to release cards that "regulate" problematic cards rather than have those cards restricted. If anything, Lavinia opens up space in the metagame.

Metagame shifts happen all the time, it's a natural thing. Decks eventually adapt to new answers printed.
You don't hear oath players complaining about containment priest or dredge players about Rest in Peace which are a lot worse for them than Lavinia is for PO.

@macdeath I have several points of disagreement here, but I will just sum it fast.

Fast combo has always beat the Shops deck even when they have 4 Trinisphere. I played Death Long back in the day and never had an issue beating Shops. This is back when I play Brian Demars at our weekly events.

The Chalice/Lodestone meta would be a dream for a PO player. You just resolve Hurkyl's then combo out - game over.

Stony Silence is tricky but PO needs to play Fragmentize or Disenchant. When I played at SCG Con I ran Fragmentize main and Disenchant on the board. I never lost to Null Rod or Stony Silence.

Lavinia by her self is not much to overcome. You need a bounce spell to play through like playing against Leovold. The difference is that she is a 2 drop not a 3 drop like Leovold or a 4 drop like Notion Thief. The control decks that support her run 12 counters plus Snapcaster making removal an uphill battle and if she is on the board you cannot use your own FOW.

She creates a lopsided game state when playing to use skill becomes more a game of chance. Can I find my one card, and get through 12 counters with recursion.

last edited by moorebrother1

@moorebrother1 So I'm guessing you didn't give a shot at Karakas yet?

And BTW, Lavinia is nowhere near leovold in terms of locking out. With leovold, you can't even dig for answers. When I played her instead of leovold, I felt waaaaaaaay more vulnerable. I don't play PO, but it doesn't seem that dificult to play against her. Maybe the jeskai matchup got worse, but you were already on the opressive deck of the meta, so it's certainly a good thing that PO's winrate lowered a little bit.

last edited by GutoCmtt

@gutocmtt That may be true in the Survival or Bug decks. I have seen the Survival decks run her and I'm not sure why. That deck works better with Thalia and Manglehorn. She does not make every deck better but the Jeskai decks did get a stronger answer to PO.

People do not seem that bothered here maybe it's only me. So, I'll stop whining and move on.

@moorebrother1 I didn't want to post here before now because I am not interested in spreading negativity, but I wanted to reply to your last statement - I also don't enjoy the current Vintage metagame.

It seems that there are several people who do enjoy the format, and I'm very happy for those people. As long as those people are in the majority, I'll probably carry on mostly keeping quiet, and try to appreciate the format for what it is.

@jeb-springfield I also do not want to spread negativity. I am seeing a downturn in content here and I thought it may have been the time of year but with the VSL going and a new set out I thought that I would see more content.

As, I said before I'll stop whining and brew a bit. I want to play paper and take a break from MTGO. I think that will help me see the format in a different light.

@moorebrother1 I'm also a fan of playing Oath, and people running out Lavinias on T1 certainly helps the Oath game plan, though there are several counterbalancing influences on Oath's chances in the metagame:

  • a significant increase in Karakas in main decks and sideboards to fight Lavinia, making legendary Oath targets unappealing;
  • likewise for the increase in Swords to Plowshares, though plows are less of a problem than Karakas since you can exhaust them by simply Oathing again;
  • PO is a bad matchup for Oath and remains a significant part of the metagame.

Have you thought about possible Oath target configurations? The "classic" non-legendary (or otherwise Karakas-immune) Oath targets are

  • Inferno Titan
  • Blazing Archon
  • Sphinx of the Steel Wind
  • Terastodon
  • Progenitus

Combo-Oath options Tidespout Tyrant, Rune-Scarred Demon, and Auriok Salvagers are all also notably non-legendary.

The downturn in TMD content could be because the internet, as a whole, is moving away from bulletin boards towards Facebook and Reddit for discussion. Even the big dogs like MTGSalvation and The Source are slowly dying away.

@baishuu said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:

The downturn in TMD content could be because the internet, as a whole, is moving away from bulletin boards towards Facebook and Reddit for discussion. Even the big dogs like MTGSalvation and The Source are slowly dying away.

This has been true for at least a decade; though. Has there really been a significant chance in the last year?

Incidentally I hate Facebook for in-depth discussions. It's difficult to format posts, embed multiple images, search content, and is less user-friendly in general.

last edited by evouga

@baishuu said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:

The downturn in TMD content could be because the internet, as a whole, is moving away from bulletin boards towards Facebook and Reddit for discussion. Even the big dogs like MTGSalvation and The Source are slowly dying away.

Facebook? I mean, I get the others (reddit, discord), but facebook I thought was slowling dying already. I actually saw that happening to TheSource, the topics I was following were really dying, while the deck's discord was on a rise. I don't know about reddit, but on discord the discussions were too shalow. I don't know, I feel like forums like TMD are better placed for more profound discussions. Discord is more like a big whatsapp group (which is definitely not something good).

"The internet as a whole" means more than just us idiots. Middle-aged women talking shit about Lifetime reality TV stars don't want to use bulletin boards, and they probably outnumber vintage players 1000:1.

I'd be interested to hear how many active users this place has. @Brass-Man ?

@baishuu I do not know what the number is, but in the past it was obviously enough for him to justify keeping TMD around. Now? I am not so sure.

@baishuu "active users" can mean a lot of different things. I can say that there were 549 posts in the past month. The numbers I have for "unique visitors" and "page views" are so high that I suspect my data doesn't properly differentiate between human lurkers and bots. I definitely can't provide user trend data because we just don't have historical data on this stuff for the site.

Anecdotally, I can say that I can never remember a time when people haven't been saying "TMD used to be more active", even 15 years ago when the site was brand new and people were saying "Beyond Dominia used to be more active."

I don't have hard data but I do have a working theory. It is extremely common to see people go through phases with this hobby (like any hobby, of course).

People start out excited and passionate and consume every bit of information they can find. At this point a player is fascinated just reading lists of archetypes and historical results. Maybe they feverishly hunt down fundamental general theory pieces like "Who's the Beatdown?" Maybe they buy a physical copy of "Playing to Win." Thinking about the game in a new way, each win is thrilling and motivates them to learn more, each loss is a challenge to find that piece of the puzzle they're missing.

At some point they find a set of strategies that work for them and they start specializing. They don't really need general information anymore, they get the fundamentals, they want to learn what successful players are doing and replicate that. These players hunt down tournament reports and sideboard guides and archetype megathreads.

Some players have a knack for the game or a lucky streak and start picking up wins and the minor notoriety that comes with it. Notoriety is fun (speaking from experience) and these players tend to get excited about putting their own mark on the metagame. They want to take a crack at writing their own primers and tournament reports. A player with a lot of hubris, like my younger self, might even try adding to the great canon of magic theory.

Whether they have tournament success or not, eventually a player hits a plateau in their results and their interest starts to wane. Maybe they still like talking about vintage, but at some point reading primers and sideboard guides stops making them any better. Maybe they think their own techniques are better, or maybe they just aren't getting results from what other people write. Either way isn't making them any better at the game, so motivation to read them is low. On the other hand, "vintage issues" topics like WotC announcements and restrictions don't suffer this problem (they were never supposed to make you better). Proportionately, more of their conversation will be about these subjects. Some may refocus their efforts on community building, maybe through TO'ing or Judging or facilitating content creators.

Interest waxes and wanes, and maybe not everyone hits all the notes in the same order, but I think most players do. Some of the excitement can't be recycled, either. New cards can be printed and new strategies learned, but you can only read "The Danger of Cool Things" for the first time once ... even though people keep writing it over and over again. When you ask someone about the historical health of the vintage community, it's probably not hard to listen to their answer and pinpoint exactly when they started playing.

I think "the downturn" in the hobby as a whole (which includes TMD but certainly Facebook and many other avenues as well), is a lot like an adult watching a child's cartoon and saying, "when I was a kid these were much more entertaining." The cartoons didn't change, you did.

last edited by Brass Man

@brass-man I appreciate your long and thoughtful response. I have had several moments while playing where I have taken a break or at the very least taken the format much less seriously.

I think that sometimes when you play with a certain group things can get a bit stale. Sometimes a herd mentality can change how the game is played or perceived. I think the meta-game is fine and the game itself is fine.

Your point about how we approach the game is extremely poignant. I realize that I get something from playing, brewing, and discussing magic that I cannot replace, at least not easily.

These discussions on this site help me keep perspective, I may feel or perceive something that is not really there or not really that bad. I appreciate the community here.


TPS (not Death long) was actually Trinistax's worse matchup, this is a well-known thing. Mainly due to the fact that Workshops at that time were way less consistent and really bad at closing games. Which gave you enough time to build up your lands to play through Trinisphere.
When you talk about shops in the lodestone golem era, that's a completely different story. Against those decks you only had a few turns before they killed you, meanwhile, they were able to consistently deprive you of a mana every turn.

You are dead wrong if you think you could resolve Hurkyl's EOT consistently when lodestone and chalice were unrestricted.
PO never had to face Chalice, the only reason PO has a good matchup vs shops today is because of its artifact mana, Chalice would totally change that dynamic.

The same arguments you applied to stony apply to Lavinia, instead of Fragmentize and/or Disenchant just replace them with Swords to Plowshares and/or Karakas.

The decks that run Lavinia are the same decks that ran/run stony silence with the same 12 counters, so once again this is not an argument.
FOW is probably your worst card in the matchup anyway, Lavinia or not. There are a lot of options that get around this part of Lavinia's ability such as Flusterstorm or Defense Grid.

@macdeath TPS was a better version of Death Long, Death Long was just more fun to play. I mostly agree with you but I played Noble Fish and StoneBlade during the LSG era. I did very well, coming in top 8 at most of the events at my local game store.

The approach of Karakas and Swords to Plowshares is good but the Xerox decks have too many answers right now. That was the point of this thread. I am finding the Xerox decks to be down right oppressive and "unfun".

I know PO and Shops are hated decks but Vintage has turned into a format of hated decks not feared decks. People downright hate the arch-types in the format right now. I was very apprehensive about Rich Shay's comments on the format in the article at but I am seeing it now.

As I said above, I am not about negativity but health of the format. I am at a point where I just need to brew and play jank, maybe stop playing leagues for a bit and just get back into paper and have fun.

last edited by moorebrother1

If Xerox has you down, Survival is for you! (It also happens to be solid against Shops and can be set up to not be a total dog to PO).

I want to come back to this discussion. I took a break from MTGO and I have been brewing on paper. It looks like Xerox has gotten better and PO is harder to play in the meta. Shops is still really good but looks like it is played less. Is this meta still enjoyable?

Still yes.

Edit: I'm hesitant to talk about this too much as I don't want to appear mean or uncaring. I get the frustration where we aren't having fun playing something that is supposed to be fun. I do want to make my opinion known as I don't think the picture that the format is universally despised is an accurate one. It's certainly not in my case.

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain Sometimes when a part of the game is not fun it is better to focus on a different part that you enjoy.

I am focusing my attention on deck building right now, so I am enjoying the game. With that said, I am looking the at meta-game in a different way and I want to play different decks.

I think MTGO does offer a lot but for me sometimes going back to paper is just more fun.

Interestingly enough, I did change my PO deck to play in the new meta and it plays very well. I just need a break from MTGO for a while.

last edited by moorebrother1
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