How to beat Xerox with UW Outcome
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I have been having trouble with the Xerox matchup, I've been running a UW version of Outcome. I'm just wondering if there is a card I'm missing to help with the matchup.
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Lavinia helps as does a chalice on 1. Chalice one 1 hurts you some taking away ancestral, BS, top (pretty important in long matches) and sol ring.
Vs xerox it takes out:
mental misstep (2-4 copies)
brainstorm
ancestral recall
preordain 3-4 copies
ponder
git probe
SDT if they use it
REB 1-2 copies
STP (important if you are running mentor as an alt win-con and to protect lavinia if you are running her)
That's nearing 25% of their total deck and 50% of their non-mana spells.I've been play testing 2x lavinia and chalice in my u/w bomberman (which runs PO as a draw engine) to a much improved match up vs xerox decks.
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My list runs 3 Lavinia and 4 Flusterstorm post board. It just seems when I play against Xerox, they always have countermagic then if they dont have the counter they have either Ancient Grudge to blow up my artifacts or Dack Fayden to steal them. Makes for a very unfun match, especially when you play it 3/5 rounds in a League.
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@msg67183 Playing a Mentor PO vs Xerox is not good right now. The black cards are too good and really needed. I played the UW deck for a while and I recommend main deck swords to plowshares and main deck Karn. If you are playing tinker swap the bot to Inkwell. I found Aetherflux Resevior to be a good instant kill if you do not have black. Also, Erayo is really good against Xerox since they need at least 2 spells to get rid of her.
I have given up on straight UW PO and gone into Esper, it’s just better. The Grixis version is also strong.
I suggest going down on counter magic and just lean into the decks power. If you stay with UW you need to up the land count to at least 13 maybe even 14. look at @Smmenen list from VSL. Your deck will look similar to that but main deck Karn or Erayo and swap bot for Inkwell or Aestherflux.
Hope that helps.
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Obviously we move Colossus to the board for prison matchups I assume? Erayo seems sweet. I do not own Force of Wills so it seems like I might be better off with Defense Grid over Flusterstorm? Grid allows me to go off early. Or would Erayo fot those slots? I was actually considering Inkwell Leviathan because it seems like it's basically unbeatable for current URg Xerox, and unlike Sphinx of the Steel Wind, it's great against a Swords to Plowshares opponent. Would you prefer to see my current list so you can give me better advice?
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@msg67183 I do not believe Blightsteel Colossus is good main deck anymore. Inkwell is almost an I win against Xerox.
If you are not playing the black cards then you have to lean into the speed of the deck. You really need 4 Preordain. Force is very good in PO, I’m not sure flusterstorm is a substitute. You end up not being able to stop things that stop you.
I tested Erayo heavily and she is good against blue deck and not much else.
Defense grid would be better since you do not have FOW and you need removal and bounce. Probably a main deck Balance, Disenchant and Echoing Truth. All 2 drops to get past Mental Misstep. Play Mystical Tutor to find your answers.
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This is my current list for reference:
Mana (24):
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
1 Mox Opal
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus PetalDraw/Tutor (18):
4 Preordain
4 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
TinkerWin the Game (7):
Mind's Desire
Time Walk
Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Monastery Mentor
1 Blightsteel ColossusDisruption (6):
3 Flusterstorm
3 Lavinia, Azorius RenegadeRemoval (5):
3 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
BalanceSideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Fragmentize
1 Flusterstorm
1 PlainsI currently only own 3 Strands, that way you are aware.
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@msg67183 Do you have Snapcaster Mage? And anymore Mox Opals?
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No I do not, sadly. I wonder if picking up the cards to play DPS would just be better right now, since DPS doesnt get hit by the stuff that current Xerox decks are doing to handle current combo decks.
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@msg67183 DPS sadly does also get hit by a lot of the stuff. Rod, Stoney and REB/Pyro aren't as brutal, but MM, Flusterstorm, Lavinia, FoW and Trap still hit us pretty hard. If you switch to DPS let me know, iam interested in your list then.
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@msg67183 Based on your current decklist and card collection, I would recommend going away from a "traditional" PO build.
You can play around with other concepts but you really need at least 2 Mox Opals and even then I would say add 1 or Chrome Mox to sure up your mana.
The turn 1 for this deck is critical and the ability to finish when you have an opening is even more critical. Lavinia has made playing PO very hard but PO is still one of the best decks in the format so that is saying something.
DPS will give you similar challenges but different options. Look at the @CyrusCG list from the VSL - https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2019/01/vintage-super-league-season-9-week-1-decklists/
It is a solid build
Dark Petition Storm (DPS)
Spells (48)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
3 Defense Grid
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Necropotence
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sol Ring
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
Lands (12)
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground SeaSideboard (15)
1 Defense Grid
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
3 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Fatal Push
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tinker -
@msg67183 said in How to beat Xerox with UW Outcome:
This is my current list for reference:
Mana (24):
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
1 Mox Opal
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus PetalDraw/Tutor (18):
4 Preordain
4 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
TinkerWin the Game (7):
Mind's Desire
Time Walk
Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Monastery Mentor
1 Blightsteel ColossusDisruption (6):
3 Flusterstorm
3 Lavinia, Azorius RenegadeRemoval (5):
3 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
BalanceSideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Fragmentize
1 Flusterstorm
1 PlainsI currently only own 3 Strands, that way you are aware.
I dont want to sidetrack the conversation too much here with a nomenclature debate, but I'm wondering how you dont consider this deck itself to be Xerox?
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@khahan That is kind of a loaded question. I have stopped looking at blue decks like that because the "shell" for blue decks are all so similar that they all start to blend into each other. I actually counted cards that make the deck different and you only get about 12 cards because the shells all start with 5 mox, lotus, ancestral, time walk, probe, dig, gush, cruise, brainstorm, ponder, preordain. It's not to say these cards make every deck the same or different but it is so easy to say all blue decks are Xerox. I just don't go there anymore.
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@moorebrother1 said in How to beat Xerox with UW Outcome:
@khahan That is kind of a loaded question. I have stopped looking at blue decks like that because the "shell" for blue decks are all so similar that they all start to blend into each other. I actually counted cards that make the deck different and you only get about 12 cards because the shells all start with 5 mox, lotus, ancestral, time walk, probe, dig, gush, cruise, brainstorm, ponder, preordain. It's not to say these cards make every deck the same or different but it is so easy to say all blue decks are Xerox. I just don't go there anymore.
Understood and I agree to an extent. I typically try to stay away but it just seems a bit relevant here. I'm counting 4x preordain, AR, BS, ponder, 3xrepeal, Git probe - and only 13 land. To me, that is pretty much the definition of the xerox shell. On the other hand the U/W deck I run that I referenced in my first post has AR and BS and a heavier focus on counter magic and broken big spells. The Chalice of the Void strat I mentioned works because that deck ISN'T anything like the xerox shell. But CotV on 1 would pretty much shut this deck down, too.
And the reason I think its relevant is maybe the answer to the OP's question lies in a change in play approach as opposed to a card change. -
That's what I was afraid of. I finally have a full set of power on mtgo, not sure what to do with it lol. DPS seems like an idea actually. The list I had in mind was Esper so that I could play Lavinia but I'm not sure if that is worth it... here is what I threw together:
Mana (29):
1 Karakas
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal RitualDraw/Tutor (18):
4 Preordain
4 Dark Petition
2 Yawgmoth's Bargain
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric TutorWin the Game (4):
Time Walk
Monastery Mentor
Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of AgonyDisruption (7):
4 Duress
3 Lavinia, Azorius RenegadeRemoval (2):
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's RecallSideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Fragmentize
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Plains -
I would make some adjustments to the mana base. Even with lavinia sea is your most important dual so I would up it to 3 seas and drop to one tundra and one scrub. Early sea gives you duress, rit, recall, + cantrips and it will feel bad getting your only copy striped/wasted. Also would move karakas to the board and add basic swamp. Also I didnt see necro in the deck. I would definetly add as there will be times where it's your best route to win thru dark petition.
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So here is a list I'm wondering if any Outcome grinders would provide some thoughts on, it's still UW:
Mana (25):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Karakas
Tolarian Academy
Library of Alexandria
2 Mox Opal
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus PetalCreatures (4):
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Snapcaster Mage
Monastery MentorDraw/Tutor/Power (23):
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Timetwister
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Tutor
Mind's Desire
Time Walk
Time VaultPermission (6):
4 Force of Will
2 FlusterstormRemoval (2):
1 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's RecallSideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Flusterstorm
1 Island
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Tinker
BalanceI wonder if this list is good? What would you cut? Add?
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Timetwister and Mind's Desire are traps without Tendrils of Agony. Also, I greatly dislike Preordain as a 4x because youre trying to play the Xerox role and when you're needing to commit cards to the board, it just isn't good enough. I'd be playing 2 Missteps (Mainly to Misstep Misstep on Top/Sol Ring - @nedleeds tag for value).
You lose near-nothing by going into black to gain access to Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.
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From what I've seen, Lavinia is only really good against Outcome. Maybe it isnt even needed? Yes I understand playing 1 Underground Sea for the trifecta: Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will seems quite easy.
