@ApolloGod Ha... too right... I suck. Thanks again.
Well when I won with my list, I remember my delver opponent having Cage in play. I had oath in play. I drained a gush, on my turn oathed Griselbrand to top of tempo deck, drew it for turn, then proceeded to hardcast via Drain mana ;-)
To each their own. I was undefeated in events vs mentor...which seemed like your concern
@tattoocek Yeah... I love that tech... honestly, I don't fear Cage much at all for that exact reason. Priest is a huge pain though...
Yeah I mean. I'm probably not just going to switch to your list wholesale or anything. I hope that's not what you want, but I'm certainly going to try it. I think I'm going to main board a Deluge for a start. I do like beating Mentor.
I just think in order to go landstill route at all, you need more main deck removal. Because if they land a threat before you play Standstill, you'll need a removal or oath. I'd definitely start there...good luck!
@tattoocek That's interesting again... yeah. I think this thread is gonna really help me. I'm realizing that the main difference between our builds is that my Oath package is a lot beefier, while your Board removal is way beefier... It's great to realize that tension in these builds... do you plan to remove the opponent's board, or try to just punch em in the throat? Presumably there is a sweet spot here... Ok... testing again now, I'm going to see if I can find it. (hell, maybe it's just exactly what you have... IDK)
@tattoocek I very much appreciate someone posting this primer, but I have to admit that I like your list much better.
If you could post your list here Josh, I think it would really be beneficial to everyone.
I posted it above if you scroll up a little...I haven't touched the deck in a few months so the list could potentially use some tweaking :-P
So I tested your list and my list each a little bit last night and again this morning against Gush/Mentor. The Oath deck won each time. (My wife and I played 8 quick matches, switching decks after each.) And each time we switched builds, I made a some card switches. I tried Deluge swap for Channel first. That was ok. I don't think I'll run it that way. In one of those games ended up drawing Deluge and Emrakul together... and waiting. And then eventually Deluging some monks. When Deluge resolved (we traded Fow's on that), I'll admit I was a little disappointed, because that meant Channel would just have resolved and the game would have been over. I eventually landed Jace on the board and won pretty easy. So it can't be that bad... Idk, that one's unclear.
I tried a single Show and Tell in your list in the place of a Decay. That was great. I used it 2 times in 3 games and each time just Grized and won. (Once she showed a Blightsteel, and it didn't even matter. I draw a bunch of cards, chumped once with a Factory, found Jace and killed her) I'm really a fan of Show, given that people run a lot of nature's claims in their boards because they're good against Shops and Oath. Full disclosure, My wife landed a Priest, and it got Deluged, so score one for that card.
Then we tried more Decays in my main board. Yeah. You are right. You basically can't lose game one. So much ammo. I just cut Channel and Show for this one... This is a really hard choice for me, because I really don't want to neuter the Oath side of the deck. I think it really helps Standstill to be able to weather the inevitable barrage when they break the Standstill, then counterattack with something much worse... That being said. Dang you just shoot whatever you don't like with Decay. So... again, that's not yet clear to me. I suppose I should start testing against Shops, Dredge, Storm and other stuff to see which way is best. I think the internal tension between Board Removal and the number of Kill Cards is where the meta-game tuning happens in this deck. One would think that the more Mentor/Hatebear/Tezz type decks you see, board removal would be better. The more Dredge/Storm you see, the more important being explosive would be? That's my working theory anyway.
Lets see what else... We cut a Jace from your deck next for Cruise. (Why don't you run cruise anyway?) I saw no discernible difference. Though in that one my wife was playing the OathStill. She walked over me turn one with an unending sequence of Standstills and Decays. I got game 2 but only because she made a mistake with Library of Alexandria, then she just walked me in game 3 again. (PS... playing the Mentor side sucks. It feels so defensive.)
So... that's what I got. My guesses about your deck are, I think Top should be Cruise. I think a Jace should be a Show (two black tutors you really want a Show in there). And I think there are too many Drains, because they are hard to play.... Maybe cut one for a 5th Decay?... just kidding. I dunno. Yours is certainly better tuned to play against a lot of Mentor though. So I'm going to work on leaning out my kill and putting in more board removal. I'm also going to make a Sphinx into a Griz and see what that does, if anything.
@tattoocek I’ve been playing with your deck all day. The thing that’s best about it is that it can reach truly absurd levels of inevitability late game with all the hard counters and control. The thing I don’t like about it is that it feels slower to get started than what I’m used to.
It rarely does much on turn 1. I can see why you’re so high on Decay for that reason. It really shines in your build where you can let threats resolve and then shoot them in the face. It is often the second deck to play a spell in the game. I did some math so see the differences.
I defined a good proactive first turn as any turn where one of the following five things happened. Play a Library of Alexandria, a Standstill, an Oath, Dropping a Jace, or a Chalice set at 1 (Chalice at zero after playing some moxen is about the same thing so I just skipped it) To be fair, I didn’t include plays like Channeling an Emrakul, Tinkering a Sphinx, or Showing one or the other into play.
My deck as is (Rough %s for turn 1)
Library = 11%
Playing Standstill = 12% (39% Standstill + Blue Source 82% + A mox or lotus 37%)
Playing Oath = 11% (Oath 39% + Green Source 76% + A mox or lotus 37%)
Playing Chalice@1 = 3% (Chalice 11% + Any mox or lotus 37% + Another mana source 92%)
Playing Jace = 1% (Jace 11% + Lotus and other mana source 10%)
Your Deck as is (Rough %s for turn 1)
Library = 11%
Playing Standstill = 39% Standstill/ Blue Source 84%/ A mox or Lotus 30% = 10%
Playing Oath = Oath 39%/ Green Source 79%/ A mox or Lotus 30% = 9%
Playing Chalice@1= 0%
Playing Jace = 2%
That made me wonder what the result would be of adding Ruby to my deck for… IDK, just something that wouldn’t change the other %s too much. Lets just say a Sphinx.
My deck with Ruby for a Sphinx
Library = 11%
Playing Standstill = 39% Standstill / Blue Source 82% / A mox or lotus 43% = 17% roughly
Playing Oath = Oath 39% / Green Source 76% / A mox or lotus 43% = 13% roughly
Playing Chalice@1 = Chalice 11% / Any mox or lotus 43% / Another mana source 92% = 4%
Playing Jace = 1%
SO… my take away is, this build should at least be looking at running more artifact mana because it turns on the aggressive lines much more, much earlier. My build with Ruby in should be doing something pretty annoying, approaching 50% of the opening hands, when you include the rarities like Tinkers, Channels, Shows and broken turns off Ancestral. I think that will mitigate a lot of need for board removal, since in many of those games, the initial advantage will just be too big for opponents to overcome?
In total fairness, your build does a lot of other little turn one things. Like dropping a Top, or the requisite Brainstorm or Ponder. I didn’t factor these in either. I probably should have, but its tough because now I'm calculating drawing to other good things, and all those things involve potential Misstep lines... woof
What do you think about this? How did your games in that 16 player tourney go? Slow and grindy? Did you feel like you fell behind and then took stuff off their board a lot? Why not just run more acceleration… is it fear of pitching moxen under the Standstill?... and why the heck not run a Chalice if you only run 4, zero mana artifacts, and 3 one mana spells not named Misstep or Flusterstorm?
(PS. Loved watching you play on the Mana Drain League)
Too much to respond from thoroughly at the moment, but I will say this. I tested Cruise and don't like it without playing Dack Faydens. Dig is just better. I chose top to I could smooth my draws better. I don't want more artifact fast mana because I play this as a landstill/grindy control deck first and foremost. The worst thing would be playing a Standstill and drawing moxes. My list is a direct reflection of my playstyle. If I wanted a more aggressive oath list with faster and more aggressive plays, it certainly wouldn't be a landstill variation.