I don't think it has any implications at all. Shaving of 1 mana from Counterflux doesn't make it playable for me. I wouldn't play this over Mana Drain ever. And if I wan't and uncounterable counter I'll play Flusterstorm (doesn't counter PWs like this does but I don't think it matters).

Maybe Legacy Miracles will play this on the SB.

I think U/W control is gaining a lot of tools from the last few sets + WAR. Dont write this off yet. A new u/w control deck is definitely viable and this could be a nice 1 of in the main with 1 or 2 in the sideboard for just about anything but shops or bug.

I mean, shaving one mana off and making it totally different colors really sorta changes the contours of the card don't you think? Especially since it is the same colors as Linvala. I honestly do not see this as even close to a parallel to Mana drain. This exists in a very specific space where it just says no to the most powerful cards in the game.

@khahan

My initial hunch was to write this off, but I think you're right that this could make it into some hard control shell. Maybe some type of Landstill shell with Lavinia? I could see the card playing a role against Outcome, although I honestly don't know if Landstill needs the help in that match-up (haven't played it much in the last two years or so).

Isn't this just doing what Flusterstorm already does, but for more mana?

@maximumcdawg No - it can counter enchantments (oath), artifacts (rod/sphere), and PWs. Fluster can also be paid for in later turns.

Fluster can also be Flustered back, as well as overloaded Counterfluxed. This cannot.

I think the biggest implication here is against Oath. Provided your opponent does not god hand out a forbidden mox oath turn one you basically have a hard stop for them. 95% of the way oath player push oath through is with force and MM to back it up. None of those work against this. The only real way to get this off the stack is Mindbreak Trap, which will be rare at that point to be played for free, or Venser which no one plays and certainly Oath would not. They will have to rely on Duress effects or Stripmines to take you off counter mana.

I think this is one of the best Counterspells ever printed, will 100% see vintage and legacy play, and is an awesome addition to the format

im likely to play this in legacy miracles for the mirror among other things at some point, and as others pointed out this is not flusterstorm.
planeswalkers, oath, and assorted artifacts getting hit is very relevant.

The card is unlikely to see much play, not because it's a bad card, but because the decks in which it would be good are not popular in this metagame. It's honestly a little boring because it's very easy to evaluate.

It's just an uncounterable Negate... That is literally its functional equivalent. The card does one of the most basic things in Magic with a pretty intuitive static ability. It should be easy to draw upon one's Magic experience to simulate the type of circumstances in which this card is good.

Stopping a must-counter spell in a control deck? Good. Opponent can't protect it with their own counters and it's better than flusterstorm as the opponent can't play lands past it.

Protecting your own spell? Bad, most likely. Opponent can just counter the original spell unless their only other counter is situational and unable to do so. It's also more expensive than other options.

Counter in a Tempo deck? Cheaper spells are going to be better most of the time. Pyroblast answers Delve spells, PO, and both resolved/cast walkers, not to mention Snap/Jace. Fluster has upside of being a 2-for-1 (if you aren't getting 2-for-1's with your Flusterstorms a significant amount of the time, you aren't playing the card correctly).

Focus on decks and schools, not just arbitrary distinctions between cards. This card has implications...for UW control decks...which aren't very good right now.

last edited by ChubbyRain

@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Dovin's Veto:

Focus on decks and schools, not just arbitrary distinctions between cards. This card has implications...for UW control decks...which aren't very good right now.

Decks get good when new printings enter the format and boost them. This seems like it would be one of those printings.

@protoaddict said in [WAR] Dovin's Veto:

@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Dovin's Veto:

Focus on decks and schools, not just arbitrary distinctions between cards. This card has implications...for UW control decks...which aren't very good right now.

Decks get good when new printings enter the format and boost them. This seems like it would be one of those printings.

This plus Lavinia plus the new teferi . . .

Good! I would love a discussion about what you think a UW control list featuring those cards would entail. It’s much more interesting than discussing why this card isn’t flusterstorm.

last edited by ChubbyRain

I am by no means a control player, but if we are starting with a blue white shell I would probably start with

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Dovin's Veto
4 Force of will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
X Swords to Plowshares
X Lavinia
X New Teferi
X Meddling Mage
1 Clique
1 Monastery Mentor

1 Strip Mine
4 Wastelands
4 Flooded Strand
x Plains
X Island
X Tundra

And just play something "fair" and grindy. Because Dovin's Nope gives you a 100 certifiable way to stop a PO or a Oath dead I think it allows you to play a much more fair game and lean on your lockout pieces a bit more.

@protoaddict That's the thing, the list seems fine but now you have a bunch of dead cards against Shops AND zero artifact removal. I know it's a first draft but the point is exactly that: Veto is just one more card you'll play that does almost nothing against Shops.

Teferi, Lavinia and Meddling Mage are also subpar against shops, so I bet it will be a bad matchup.

I mean, that was scarcely a full list. Still plenty of room for stuff to hate on artifacts, though your contention that Ban is wasted cardboard against shops I do not agree with. Mental Misstep has fewer targets than ban does in shops and no one is saying cut those from any deck.

White has a TON of options against artifact decks and a number of directions they can go. This list is not even above doing an Arcane Lab / Hurkyl's recall plan against shops, but probably just more main board removal would work too. I would even go as far as saying blue can consider using 1-2 disrupting shoal in a heavy veto list because so very many cards are set to 2 CMC now.

@protoaddict What is Ban?

Now, I'm not criticizing tour list since I know it's a draft. I'm pointing out that you're playing 4 more useless cards against Shops (4 Veto) which won't help other subpar cards like Lavinia and Teferi. If you think overloading on 4 Misstep and 4 Veto can beat Shops be my guest, but I'll disagree (on paper). I really don't see how this card can be that great, sorry. Maybe in hard control lists like Landstill? But even then you're still probably better off playing Mana Drain, aren't you?

@fsecco said in [WAR] Dovin's Veto:

@protoaddict What is Ban?

Yea meant Veto. I keep calling it Dovin's Nope and the dyslexia kicks in.

Yea I don't think this card is good for the shops match up, but that is not what it's for. There are number of cards that are worse than a shatter in that match up but we still play them. But where this is good and mostly better than other options, against Oath, against PO, it is a fantastic card (in theory craft anyway.)

Also, honestly, if you're playing Lavinia and Teferi Reveler, why do you even need this? They already make your counters uncounterable/hard to counter by themselves... I mean, a 4 Teferi list seems much more viable to me than a 2 mana counter. I may be blind here, but I really don't see this card's appeal.

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