@vaughnbros But these effects, even in combination, aren't enough at 3 mana, 2 of which are colored. It's just so slow, vulnerable, and doesn't do enough outside of specific contexts. Can you imagine how poor Dack would be if instead of looting it had self mill?

I also love how "Anyone that wants the abilities on the card can play the card" is some how insightful... Do you have specific lists or archetypes in mind that would like to play the card? Do you have decks that could be built around it? Even though I disagree with @TheActualSaturn's take, I'm glad he made a suggestion.

@chubbyrain

Isn't this just better than the 2nd Kaya in your junk decklist?

No, the Kaya is a finisher, removal spell for moxen against PO and other DRS (it's come up quite a few times), and life gain to help fuel Bob and Sylvan. Ashiok is functionally none of those things.

You want to build a deck that can harness Ashiok as an engine, and anything else is supplemental.

If you're playing against Dredge, and you have Ashiok main and can land it game 1, it's probably too slow, but it could very well turn the game around. (Note: You can play Ashiok off only a Black Lotus, unlike Dack.)

If you're not playing against Dredge, I think you want to be piloting a deck where -1 Ashiok, targeting yourself has the effect of either drawing cards (Yawmogth's Will, Snapcaster, Ramunap, Life from the Loam, etc) or powering Delve (Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Tasigur). You are gaining resources (and knowledge about the remainder of your deck), and hindering your opponent.

For comparison, Bazaar moves 5 cards (2 from library to hand, and 3 from hand to graveyard). This one moves 4. It's not a land, and you likely won't play it on turn 1, so it's clearly not as powerful on the two axes, but it does give us some insight into it's raw max potential. I figure it's somewhere more than 80% of Bazaar. It has two upsides, pitches to FoW, soaks up damage, and doesn't take up a land slot.

I still debate with my friends how much Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time should cost to be "fair," but they both just got cheaper by four mana. And we already know Yawgmoth's Will and Snapcaster are both busted.

Ghost Quarter just became Strip Mine, and Ghost Quarter has seen play in Vintage. UG could make this a thing. UB & BUG? Probably not. I don't think this is a real point, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried a thing.

@theactualsaturn Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin don't work, because they aren't an effect the opponent controls.

I love this card and think it's not as slow as people think. Turn 1 land, mox - turn 2 land, Ashiok. It's not like Vintage is a format without a crapload of moxen, and this can work off jet OR sapphire OR two lands that produce blue and/or black + ANY moxen. The turn 1 on lotus is going to be rare...but if you drop this thing turn 2, the opponent is still stuck with multiple fetches and dead tutors.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

Good point about Ghost Quarter. Field of Ruin depends on who activated it, but I won't be running either now! 😄

@chubbyrain

I'm pointing out Kaya mostly because "Its not Dack" is just about the silliest argument against this. Its like all the people that yell "Its not JtMS" for every 4 mana walker. You are better than that.

This feeds your DRS/Tarmogoyf, mana denies any Fetch lands your opponents play later in the game, shuts down game ending spells like Tinker/Dark Petition, stronger hate against Dredge as it nukes their entire yard (when combined with DRS or Wasteland should be game ending). Kaya is the latter, but that's it. If you don't want to play it that's fine, but it serves similar value across a number of matchups as these other 3 mana walkers. I can understand Kaya #1 being better in that list, but drawing this instead of a 2nd Kaya would be a benefit towards fueling Kaya's ultimate.

This is also playable in Landstill (or any other wasteland based control) the 1-sided Mindlock Orb effect against storm and -1 is very strong against Dredge. Both abilities play well with any strip effects, e.g. Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/ect. Her -1 is also synergistic with Crucible. It is highly matchup dependent though so I don't think this is a make or break card for these decks.

@vaughnbros This seems pretty baller WITH Kaya, as Ashiok essentially exiles 4 a turn if you target your opponent, and Ashiok hits your opponent's whole grave the turn you play it. That seems to make Kaya's ultimate deadlier than it already may be.

@vaughnbros I'm not making the "Dack/Planeswalker Gambit" TM. I'm making the argument that self-mill is overrated. Weren't you testing with us when we were trying to make Thought Scour work while Dig + Cruise were still legal? The problem was that you had trouble finding or resolving the cards that converted the self-mill into an advantage and that's why Preordain and Probe ultimately proved better.

Landstill can't beat Dredge, certainly not with this card. It had a sub-20% match win rate already, lacks Moxen to accelerate out expensive hate, and generally struggles to deal with even a couple creatures from Dredge. The last thing it needs is a 3 drop hate-piece that dies to a single Hollow One attack.

You can try it as a Prison card but it's pretty expensive at 3 mana. Or run it in a UB Turbo/Depths Lands shell where the self mill can find Life from the Loam and Bazaar and cast it off Urborg. Just remember (as others pointed out) that it doesn't work with Ghost Quarter.

@chubbyrain

I agree that self mill alone isn’t good, but self mill is the worst portion of the card text. Mindcensor w/ sorcery exile are its primary abilities. It does all 3 the first turn you play it.

Sorcery GY removal isn't even good enough against Dredge or Survival and can be played around easily.

I'm sorry, perhaps you missed what his static ability says. Please let me know if you still feel this card is not good against survival, because as far as I can tell it may be one of the BEST cards to land against survival.

@protoaddict I meant Survival the deck. He can bazaar a bunch of dudes into play through Ashiok pretty consistently. Also, landing this on turn 3 is probably too slow.

@fsecco

You can easily cast this turn 2 in Vintage.

Against Survival the deck, its shutting off Survival the card and making Bazaar worse (not as ideal as instant speed GY removal, but its still making it worse).

@vaughnbros you can cast this turn 2 as easily as they're can cast Survival turn 1 and have 1 turn unimpeded, making this too slow. That's my point. Is this good enough to see play when it "kinda hurts" whatever you're trying to hurt?

@fsecco said in [WAR] Ashiok, Dream Render:

@vaughnbros you can cast this turn 2 as easily as they're can cast Survival turn 1 and have 1 turn unimpeded, making this too slow. That's my point. Is this good enough to see play when it "kinda hurts" whatever you're trying to hurt?

I feel as if you are downplaying just what "kinda hurts" means.

It piths all of their fetches as well as survival, and depending on the build many even demonic tutor, etc. It removes any progress they may have made already by killing any vengevines in the yard. It will almost undoubtedly be used with other gravehate because that is how grave hate works.

I think this is more than kinda hurts frankly. No it is not a 1 card silver bullet, but it is certainly strong enough against a large swatch of decklists that it may be viable, and synergistic with enough stuff that its not like you are just shoving it in for one reason only.

@protoaddict alright, I'll just disagree then. This "no tutor" effect never proved good before and the sorcery GY removal is not that awesome either. Costing 3 feels too slow. I'll be glad to be proven wrong, but for me it just doesn't make it.

This could have had some potential as a storm sb card that is more versatile than just for the dredge matchup, it would be pretty easy to cast on turn one with rituals.
The main issue I see is that this is actually really bad as dredge hate, all they have to do is sandbag the bazaar activation to your EOT and go nuts on their turn.

My favourite deck to play is "survival". I would not be so scarred of this one - it is NOT instant speed. In your end phase I would put up the graveyard with survival and/or BoB, then in my main I would do, what my deck does - trigger and attack. My plan B would be as often to go aggro, as I do quite often, to all those that oversideboard against me.

Ahh, forgot the can´t search thing - then I only have BoB, damage it away og aggro - I am still not that scared. Enjoy easter all of you.

  • 41
    Posts
  • 7077
    Views