Sure, but I'm replying to notion that this card "may be one of the BEST cards to land against survival."

To be noted, this PW had a -1, so it can exile a graveyard and take a Walla or Bolt and disrupt another turn.

@wagner Thanks 🙂

Was rushing to get things done before streaming the Vintage Challenge today.

I think that the point stands that Ashiok can be attacked and removed makes it a less viable hate piece against creature-based decks right now, like Survival and even Dredge (since most lists are running 4 main deck Hollow Ones).

I think one huge thing that people are missing with Ashiok vs survival: He can disrupt for 1-2 turns and can be killed through combat damage. But if he is dying to combat damage, YOU are not dying to combat damage.

Vintage is a game of turns - as in you win or lose by the difference of one turn VERY often. If you buy 2 turns through grave exile, stifling survival, and redirecting combat damage away from your face, you essentially played timewalkx2 for 1UU (1BU, 1BB). If they printed a card that said "1UU sorcery, take an additional 2 turns" it'd be beyond busted. Ashiok gives you at least a turn if not 2 vs this deck. THAT'S the biggest accomplishment for the dream render.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

You are assuming a very narrow condition is met, but I feel I've expressed myself well enough.

I am not high enough on this card that I want to brew around it or run it in any of the shells I have in my gauntlet. To each their own. Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion.

Edit: I'm also incredibly willing to be proven wrong, especially if it means vintage becomes more diverse. I know I always try to prove others wrong when a card I think is playable is being underestimated. Good luck to anyone who tries to break this card 🙂

last edited by ChubbyRain

@thewhitedragon69 I'd actually be very interested in data with a % of matches that would have been won by the opponent on their next turn, as I feel there are also a good % of blowout matches.

That should be fairly easy to gather data on, if anyone feels like taking notes on their next playtesting or tournament 🙂

I might see how well it works in a 'Dark Times' type build with Crucible and Dark Depths parts.

@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Ashiok, Dream Render:

Edit: I'm also incredibly willing to be proven wrong, especially if it means vintage becomes more diverse.

Considering much of the power this card has is derived from the fact that it can be powered out by moxen/lotus and is in the same color as ancestral and time walk and can pitch to force with MM backup, I am not sure that making the meta more diverse is the proper metric to judge this with. If anything, if this card became prominent it would make the format either less diverse or push out some lists in favor of others for a net neutral shift.

Like, I know this is unlikely, but let's just go ahead and say that this dude becomes a powerful wincon/engine card in the super friends list because of his flexable casting cost. The super friends list is for all intents just a blue control deck with mostly similar pieces as other base blue control decks, so that's not a huge change. When building the list you likely have to consider fair cards since he shuts down so many search engines, so suddenly fetches may be too much of a vulnerability to play. No fetches means relying on true duals or basics, which means single color and dual color lists that don't search and don't need the yard are suddenly much more viable. Goblins and Merfolk could come back. Wastelands becomes that much better because people cannot protect mana with fetches. Removal may become more premium as the format gets lower to the ground and more caverns get played.

Point is, I've watched this format long enough to see several tectonic shifts in the meta and what is considered playable, and I have yet to see anything that makes me really stop and go "wow, the format is now so diverse and accessible. You can brew all sorts of stuff" because at the end of the day the pillars really do not shift at all.

@wagner I'll have to keep track next time. It's probably not as often as I think, it's just those games leave an impression. Often I run decks that win in one shot (combos, Marit Lage, vault/key, etc.) so I can have dealt 0 damage all game and would have won on my next card drawn. One of my favorite modern decks is a combo deck that does jack shit except survive until I combo, then wins in one swoop. When I lose, inevitably my next draw was the missing combo piece - just because my decks love to mock me.

I've had a chance to play quite a bit with this card in the sideboard of Oath, and I think it is great. It works in almost every matchup. I've even found it to be great tech in the Oath mirror. I won a game using only this card last night. I've used this to combat the newer Karn-Key decks. They take control of the game so quickly that I couldn't rely on Dig Through Time to pull me out of the situation. This card stops the Crucible of Worlds plan and stops Inventor's Fair. I really like the design of this card.

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