How much shake up is too much

@winterstar said in How much shake up is too much:

And the london mulligan is officially coming. We live in interesting times.

"Ancient Chinese curse"

From I have seen so far, I'm not sure if we have shake up or polarization.

When Lavinia was release she polarized the format in a very negative way and the format adjusted. When the London mulligan was being tested, it polarized the format but then it went away.

Now, we have Karn and Narset creating a polarization that I have not seen since Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise. Even 2016 with the Eldrazi onslaught does not measure up to this insane amount of polarization.

The meta-game is ok for now but the community is fractured in a negative way. The polarization creates contempt and that makes for some really bad feelings about the format.

If it's any consolation, I'm liking the format right now. I know it isn't. I know you don't care. I wouldn't too. But I'm liking it.


@gutocmtt I’m not saying the format is bad or not fun. I’m saying that it is an us versus them aspect to it that makes people upset.

Example - I’m not a fan of prison decks. I hate losing to prison decks. Right now, one of the best decks in the meta is a prison deck. So, when I lose to the deck, which will happen, I feel worse than losing to a Xerox deck or Dredge deck.

This feeling makes for a feeling that the game or the format is not fun. I’m concerned about this based on the arch types that we have now and how good they are in the meta.

I’m just starting to play more and I am also enjoying the meta so far. I feel like I can experiment with just about anything right now.

last edited by moorebrother1

@moorebrother1 I know, I was just passing by to say that. Mostly for people who think this kind of discussion means no one is liking the format. If that was true, you would be the most unsatisfied person on TMD, but I know you are just someone who likes to discuss things to get (or not) to conclusions on some matters, being satisfied or not.

@moorebrother1 said in How much shake up is too much:


When I see this word used about vintage do not think of it as I would in other formats. In Standard or modern, polarized usually means you get a Rock Paper Scissor meta where decks tend to have like a 25/75 ratio. You can still win, but it is an uphill climb.

In vintage I perceive this meaning that there are more hopeless non games. Beating shops/drazi with spheres when they are on the play may just be a function of if you drew a good opening 7 without having to mulligan, otherwise you'll never get out from behind the spheres. Or having a critical counterspell against an early combo deck. Some games are just decided on turn 0.

The cards that tend to see play in the format have some of the highest blowout potential in all of magic. Now some of the counters to them have some of the highest blowout potential. Force of Vigor of instance is almost always going to either be a dead card or the most important card you can draw, but almost never just going to be just ok. By and large the format is made up of Haymakers, not incremental gains, and I think it can be argued that the coinflip matters more and more, not less as one would hope.

At least, that is my perception of a polarized meta in vintage, which if it is changing in one direction or the other too much would def feel like a shake up of the whole game to me. No one wants vintage to be the coin flip format that people who do not play it often think it is, but as the game expands it could very easily travel in that direction.

I don't enjoy enduring this sort of shake up when it was obvious that the new cards were going to be broken.

Looking at other player-moderated formats like Old School and how it thrives, I think it would be nice to have the Vintage format be regulated by dedicated players who are capable of identifying potentially problematic cards prior to release, and taking preventative measures to stop the format from becoming a hot mess following each release of a powerful card; or otherwise capable of acting quickly once a card is identified as problematic following release.

I wonder how long it'll take for Karn and/or Narset to be officially restricted. Vintage could be a much better format than it is now, and it doesn't ever have to be in the kind of state that it is in right now with competent management of B&R.

Random question (though relevant):

Does anyone know the amount of unique sets (not including things like Mythic Edition or Spellbook) Wizards puts out a year right now, versus year's past. Regular and supplemental? Has it remained constant?

@joshuabrooks I combined the list of edition of MTG Wiki with the data base of card of MTGJSON (used by Cockatrice), Un-set are excluded. I got a total of 18909 cards.

The number of set (with at least one new card) by year:


The number of new printing by year:


The year 2019 is ongoing so the number are incomplete.
There seem to have an increase in the number of new printing in the last few years.

last edited by Cuikui

I have avoided complaining and ranting but I will put my rant hat on for a minute. So be warned.

The issue is not the shake up itself, it’s the balance of how we shake things up. Wizards is printing hosers. They print cards to mess with your deck and your plan but not the solution to fight it.

People love free counterspells and they love super tutors and lopsided hosers. These cards and the tactics that they promote polarize the meta game and community around it.

I hate this aspect of the game.

I brew quite a bit but I’m tired of having to spend a ridiculous amount of money and time to get a deck that feels right. After playing for as long as I have I should have the an arsenal that allows me to compete. Adding to an arsenal should not be cost prohibitive.

With that said I don’t expect to play the same deck forever or the same cards forever either. I expect balance. If you print super good planeswalkers then print super good removal. If all the colorless creatures are curved low then the removal should be too. If you allow people to easily blow up lands and artifacts give people a method to recover. And if counterspells are going to be free make better discard spells or more uncounterable work arounds.

The power creep is eventually going to break the eternal formats all of them. That’s my rant for what it’s worth.

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