Eternal masters roughly one month away, where's the hype (and further spoilers)?

@Greg Ok, so I will concede that to you, and probably to many Vintage players, or players who have been playing for a very long time, it is more difficult to identify those cards by sight. But, consider it from the perspective of other players: the Commander / F:TV Sol Ring has been printed to death, and I'd imagine that that's all many players have seen. And yes, I absolutely misinterpreted your tone. Mea culpa, I'm very sorry.

To continue the discussion, in let us imagine a tone-neutral way:

I don't think your Tangle Wire example takes away any of the iconography: She is literally being tangled in wires. So no, that is your personal bias, and I actually find it easier to identify that new art! It's less messy than the original, and especially when every card in Shops is has that subdued colors look...idk. I'd really call that "art that a player finds emblematic because it's been in use for many, many years". In this case, you find that Tangle Wire art easier because you've played for ages. I haven't been playing Vintage for all that long, so I find the new one easier to identify, strictly based on the images you posted. And again, from your other example: I find those equally identifiable. I'd only have to look twice at the Strip Mine bc the Expeditions are just so goddamn shiny. But....that's fine. Wizards wanted to reprint cards. The old art can't be printed in those big frames. That's ok. I'd ask you to have a look at each of those comparisons and question your own assumptions: Demonic Tutor clearly depicts a demon tutoring, in both (one is doing the act, the other has a book). Sol Ring depicts a ring with sun symbolism (flames, or a literal sun inside). Tinker, in both cases, is someone Tinkering with something mechanical. Strip Mine is both examples of the land being stripped away, one literal and one wasted by the Eldrazi (in the forefront of many players' minds, as they've shoved them down our throat). And really, both Force arts are equally abstract. A person casting a spell, and both with hella red colors.

  1. Agreed!
  2. Yea, I hate it too 😞 But I would feel more comfortable buying a new Force on eBay than an old one.
  3. I was mostly responding here to "None of this helps the players". I do think it's helpful; not on the scale we might want in the short run, but helpful.

@rikter: I don't feel like digging up a source right now, but I feel like while I was researching fakes recently there were rumors of some that passed the UV test 😧 can read about why representation matters. Are you really going to argue that magic doesn't depict predominantly white people on cards? C'mon. And no, Kamigawa doesn't count.

@Brass-Man: Comments like "this isn't the first time women of color are on cards", "we need to teach women to enjoy abstract games", and "I find <the actually appropriate way to refer to women of color> distasteful (by someone who is not a woman of color)" (not from you, in this thread) are certainly not making me feel welcome, and actively reminding me of why I gave up on the Magic community. Was hoping TMD would be better.....but it's not looking like it.

@The-Atog-Lord: Seriously, "women of color" is what women of color prefer to be called. That is the appropriate term. Portal 3k is really the only reasonable example here, as (correct me if I'm wrong), nearly all of that art was actually done by artists of those ethnicities. Kamigawa was mostly white artists drawing their idea of "generically asian" people. Khans was even worse in that respect. Have you looked at Coumbaji Witches? Literally a white woman drawing a stereotype of women of color. Gross. I have the same issue with FoW, but given that both arts are by the same artist, at least one isn't drawn from a stereotype. "Many". Ok, challenge: count. I'm willing to bet that there are more men depicted on magic cards than women, by a long shot. And that of the women depicted, most are drawn by men, and thusly, hyper-sexualized. These "fantasy versions of non-European places" are a problem called cultural appropriation. There are only ~70 female artists that have ever drawn cards for MtG, for the record. And of those, only a handful of the arts actually depict women. Asking, specifically, for a key piece of art for a set to depict a woman of color is unusual. It's brilliant. It's Cynthia making this game a better place for more people.

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We just look at this art differently I suppose. I dont see it as a big deal because its not like there have only been a few token pieces of art like this, its substantial and its been that way forever. I think its great that this new art strikes a chord with you, because the old art does the same for me and really that is what counts.

The thing is, you are in a forum where people are in general less likely to care about this art change, because a lot of folks just wont play the new card, for any reason, regardless of the art. Again, Im glad it means something to you, but I could care less what they reprint on FoW because I have Alliances and as far as I am concerned there will never be a better version, ever.

I wouldnt worry about the chinese boogey man. Perfectly reproducing magic cards, from the materials to the process is a much harder task than people give credit for Even if they do figure it out I have my stuff already anyways ; )

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@OurLadyInRed said: Seriously, "women of color" is what women of color prefer to be called.

It is amazingly presumptuous of you to decide that you can now speak for all non-white women everywhere. That's quite a statement you've made.

@OurLadyInRed said: Portal 3k is really the only reasonable example here, as (correct me if I'm wrong), nearly all of that art was actually done by artists of those ethnicities...These "fantasy versions of non-European places" are a problem called cultural appropriation.

You honestly think that a white person can't draw a non-white person? That is an incredibly racist mindset. And do you really think that Arabian Nights is Cultural Appropriation? Nonsense. Arabian Nights helped to bring an often-misunderstood part of the world to the minds and imaginations of a lot of people. Far too often, the Middle East is depicted in the popular media as being a horrible place occupied by bloodthirsty zealots. Arabian Nights the Magic set helped the players see another side of the Middle East, with imaginative creatures and fantasies played out in card form. Arabian Nights wasn't cultural appropriation. It was finding enjoyment in a culture that is far too often maligned. It's what the world needs more of.

And if you're really that concerned about "appropriating" cultures, I hope that, unless you're of Middle Eastern descent yourself, you don't use any Arabic numerals, study algebra, or wear eyeglasses.

I think we may need to step back from this conversation a bit. It's clear this is a topic we're having difficulty with discussing in constructive way. We don't need to agree with each other, but let's please make an effort to be civil and considerate

As someone who needs bulk vintage chaff, I'll be trying to get a few (5-6) packs of these close to MSRP (if possible). If the list is decent and contains even 1/3 Vintage playables I'm all over it, simply because it helps negate the hassle of robo-buying from TCG player or going through bins of Weatherlight and Urza's Legacy at my picked-dry LGSs to get 10-50c cards. I don't really care if I pull a Wasteland or a Force (or any printable mythics) because I assume I'd have to buy them anyway eventually and I'd rather have a beat-up Alliances FoW playset than a new- new-border playset, but I am pretty excited about being able to crack a pack and getting relevant cards, as opposed to how it is now, where I never crack packs because I'm not interested in Standard. It will be interesting to see how they crafted this set to give us enough while possibly getting us stoked for a new EMA in a couple years.

If I were Wizards, I would have announced a year ago that they were going to tank the price of FoW and Wasteland and then reprinted them both as uncommons. I'm sick of non-RL cards that cost that much...

Wait a minute ... could this be an opportunity for a paper reprint of Brass Man?

I'm sold.

Hi! Woman of color? Yellow? Yellow color? here on the new Force of Will.

I love and embrace what it stands for.

Which is the hope that Force of Will prices are driven into the ground, so I can finally afford the judge promo, whose art I believe is the most aesthetically pleasing and best exemplifies the spirit of the card. It's also the one with the white chick, which I actually had to go and verify before typing this sentence, because I guess I just don't care that much.

Original Force of Will is beautiful because it is iconic. Outside of the status, I think the art is an eyesore, but that is my completely subjective opinion, which most long-time appreciators of the game disagree with, because they also have a subjective opinion.

New Force of Will is like a presidential candidate. You see the promise of a tax break, but you know there's probably not going to be one, especially at Mythic rarity. But art-wise, it's the third best Force of Will.

There's going to be a release draft at my LGS, which is genuinely exciting. I hope that @Soly is not right in there being only a few chase cards, but I could definitely see it panning out that way. I'd pray for a better white option than Knight Errant, though I'm hard pressed to think of anything in white we really need to see (price-wise) besides Moat, womp womp. Selfishly, I want Ravages of War, but that was just promo-ed as well.

@SamwiseKimchi The thing I love about the original Force of Will is the color interplay between the blue border, and the deep orange red of the image (especially the lower left hand corner). Force is irrationally one of my favorite topdecks, just because I love the color. I bet I play too much Landstill just because I like the color interplay on FoW so much, and in Landstill you get to hold them up in your hand a lot.

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@Topical_Island Force of Will is usually the card I draw the turn AFTER my opponent has played a Tinker or a Triskelion. Maybe that's also subconsciously why I hold a grudge against the art. 🙂

Jesus guys. A woman, a vintage player, comes into a thread about a new reprint set, excited about one of the reprints.

We tell her that she shouldn't be excited because there's already cards like that (Enough cards? Who cares! There's at least one, why aren't you happy?)

We tell her that people who play magic for the art are shallow (a sentiment that doesn't come up to often in, say, the art collection subboard on TMD)

When said she felt like she was being condescended to, we told her that her feelings were wrong (after literally using the phrase "But my dear lady")

We told her she was racist.

This was her fifth post. I would be shocked if she came back. There was a way to have this conversation without being dismissive or disrespectful, but we couldn't find it. I can only hope that her local vintage community is actually as friendly and welcoming as I keep telling people TMD is.

From this point on, if you continue to post about this topic in this thread in any capacity (including replying to this post directly), your post will be deleted. I don't care if you think what you have to say is right, or whate you have to say is funny. I'm happy to discuss further over PM if you're unhappy with this decision.

Of course, you should feel free to continue talking about EMA.

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I feel like there would be an argument for putting Mana Drain in the set. The card hasn't been increasing in the same way others are, and it would be the 'ultimate chase mythic' of the set if that's the case.

Of course, it would also need a 3rd art, as to not step on the toes of the Judge Foil.

I think that Mana Drain would have to be in EMA2. I don't think they would want to put FOW and Mana Drain as mythics in the same set.

You should really read this article,
I dont think hes spot on with his predictions but the logic is a lot closer than what some of the poster above are suggesting. It's very unlikely they create a set where the box value is double or triple the MSRP.

I'm looking forward to Eternal Masters because it will temporarily drop prices.

I base that on two things:

  1. For older mythics, like Force of Will, even a small print run will significantly increase the number of Forces in circulation. Here's how I figure that.

Probability of opening Goyf in Modern Masters - 26.4% in a box
1.23% per pack

Since there are 15 cards per pack, to figure out the number of each Mythic we got in Modern Masters, we can estimate it as follows:

(Total number of cards printed / 15) * 0.0123 = Number of Mythics

I don't know the first variable. That's okay. Let's move on to how many Forces of Will probably exist.

Sets around the era of Alliances had print runs in the 200 million range:

That same link also suggests that there are probably 303,000 copies of each uncommon from Ice Age in existence. Alliance was a smaller set, so maybe we bump that up a bit -- and it had a judge printing -- so I'll assume that there are about 500,000 Force of Wills extant.

So, how much Eternal Masters needs to be printed to significantly increase supply? Well, I think it's fair to say that if Eternal Masters DOUBLES the amount of Forces in existence, it should have an impact on prices at least initially. In other words, if:

(Total number of cards printed / 15) * 0.0123 >= 500,000
(Total number of cards printed / 15) >= 609,756,097.56

Then I think we have a good chance of price decreases.

As a mythic that was previously an uncommon, Force is probably a good canary in the coal mine to detect how large a print run will likely hurt all prices of cards reprinted.

So, my conclusion: **If Eternal Masters has at least a print run twice as large as Ice Age (600mil) then eternal staples at all rarities probably take a hit. **

  1. For commons, uncommons, and rares, each time Modern Masters came out, it cut prices of the playable cards in this range in half or more, and demolished prices of casual fun cards in this category.

Both effects temporary, so I'll be hunting online for singles during the week or two after release almost exclusively. If demand increases for the format, then the price reduction will quickly vanish. However, during the initial surge in supply, it's time to buy more copies of Spell Pierce, Seething Song, and whatever other commons you might need to finish your Vintage playsets as well as get extra copies for your 100 casual decks or cube. (What, doesn't everyone have a huge box of casual decks to play with family?)

@Brass-Man said:

Jesus guys. A woman of color, a vintage player, comes into a thread about a new reprint set, excited about one of the reprints.

We tell her that she shouldn't be excited because there's already cards like that (Enough cards? Who cares! There's at least one, why aren't you happy?)

We tell her that people who play magic for the art are shallow (a sentiment that doesn't come up to often in, say, the art collection subboard on TMD)


Seriously though: every time an issue comes up like this (gender, race, discrimination, etc) on a Magic forum, there's always a vocal group that seems to bristle at the topic. Luckily, it's never the majority of players, and luckily, here the bristling seems pretty tame compared to what I've seen on less mature forums. Still, how hard is it to keep two simple principles in mind:

  1. Don't be a dick.
  2. Sometimes you need to listen to other people's perspectives to understand how to follow rule 1.

Disclaimer: As an old fart, I prefer the old art, too. As a person who played in Fallen Empires and loves his playset of promo Pridemages, I am nevertheless perfectly capable of memorizing alternate art.

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If anything, I'm very impressed that WOTC was able to close the lid on the various leaks/spoilers that were coming out. That there are only 2 cards known to this point (and one very bad looking Zendikar fetch hoax, from what I can see....) is pretty impressive for a company of that size. They must have really put the clamps on any printing companies or other vendors being used to pull this together.

I pre-ordered a box for $240 shipped just because I didn't want to grossly overpay once hype kicks in, and if anything I'll just have some fun cracking some packs and not expect too much from it.

I'm actually going to play in 2 sealed PPTQs that are both EMA. I judge most of the time & if I'm playing it is either a prerelease or vintage.

I'm also hoping to nab a box so that I can do a draft with friends.

@infant_no_1 Draft sounds fun. I want to draft Kobolds.

What do we think the commons in Eternal Masters will be like? More Brainstorms? Slight of Mind?

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