I think, though I may be wrong, that this isn't a rant about pyroblast as it is blue having the majority of the best mechanics in the game (draw and counterspell). Colorless has gotten a boost with Eldrazi, and Shops is always going to do broken stuff, but this seems to lament that there's not more color diversity (which I've always disliked). Back in the Old School days, you could run any colors and have an equal chance. As more sets came out, the "best" color kept concentrating more and more to blue to the point where there is so much redundancy in card drawing spells and counterspells (and FoW really shattered the mold being free) there's not much reason to play other colors beyond a splash.

What I'd LOVE to see is R/G/W/B get a pitch counterspell. If they all had a "FoW", you'd likely see all kinds of colored decks coming out. The only reason you see few colors beside blue is because Vintage is the format of turn 1 broken, and you can only stop that with FoW.

@thewhitedragon69

The most recent post by the OP was:

I am trying to wake people up to see that even if you think Vintage is a blue format your mix of cards needs to compete in a meta that will challenge that.

Other people chimed in with their own interpretations and critiques of the format, some of which were about what you mentioned. However, I don't see how you can take this statement as anything else.

Yeah - maybe that's what he meant, I dunno.

I mean, the blue/shops/dredge triangle of vintage is something I've railed about ad nauseum. I think colorless is as powerful as blue but only because of Mishra's mana-cheaty land. I'd love the original 4 colors to be on par with blue so you could have decks of many colors at the "top". My dream would be a jund deck, shop deck, PO deck, red-deck-wins, dredge, eldrazi, survival, UW humans top 8. It's why I like modern - without FoW and wasteland, EVERYTHING has a shot to win.

I get that it's not for everyone. Some folks like knowing in any given tourney, they just need 8 grave hate cards, some oath/artifact hate with the other 7, and just build a main deck that beats any manner of "draw my deck and counter everything you do.dec" It's easier to fight on 3 fronts than on 100 fronts of unknown makeup. I prefer the wild-west variety. I think FoW in the other 4 colors would shift vintage to that.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in Is vintage a blue format?:

I prefer the wild-west variety. I think FoW in the other 4 colors would shift vintage to that.

No, it really won't. Not unless you also print Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, Treasure Cruise, etc in all other colours. Once again, Vintage is blue-centric because the most powerful cards ever printed happen to be blue. Until that changes (if it ever does), it will always remain blue-centric.

@hrishi I agree that they need to start pushing other colors (and giving them blue mechanics). We'll never see ancestral or walk in another color, but we could see a cruise/dig in another color. They'd be in flavor too. Maybe something like "Bargain in Blood - Instant - BB: Pay X life to look at the top X cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library."

But even with that, I think the threshold is FoW. Back in OS days, blue had walk, twister, and ancestral - and other colors could compete. Once FoW came out and the format sped up, blue was the ONLY color with an out to turn 1 wins. And to run FoW, you needed a critical mass of blue cards to support it, so that pushed other colors out even further. If there was a card like "Force of Death - 2BB - Instant - Counter target spell and lose 2 life. You may exile a black card from your hand instead of paying the casting cost," you'd see mono-black or black+ decks being played.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@chubbyrain It is not a complaint about any of the spells or the composition of the the current blue decks. I have been slowing coming back into Vintage after a short break and I started rebuilding all of my decks.

I have been studying the results since War of the Spark came out and I see not just a meta game shift but something a bit bigger happening.

I listen very regularly to the So Many Insane Plays podcast and they were not very high on Karn. There was buzz about Karn but no one was especially high on Karn.

Honestly, I was surprised by the new Karn builds. I focused on Narset like most people and was building decks to deal with her and play with the card and I have to admit that the format has moved beyond blue mirrors.

You will still play a lot of blue mirrors if you play blue but the decks that are defining the format are no longer blue.

That was the point of this thread.

last edited by moorebrother1

@moorebrother1 I'm inclined to disagree. Colorless is the other "color" you're referring to, and it's been defining the format (along with blue) since MWS was unrestricted. The only thing to enter the paradigm since then was dredge, and that defined sideboards (by virtually making them 7 card sideboards instead of 15) more than main decks. Blue and colorless have always been the two "colors" that ever mattered in vintage since the printing of Alliances.

@thewhitedragon69 That is true that colorless has been there for a while but blue player have been loathe to accept it. Whenever colorless gets stronger we just kind of wave it off or complain until that restrict something.

Colorless deserves the respect that blue gets at this point.

last edited by moorebrother1

It looks like a theoretical discussion about the nature of the format in broad terms. Colorless decks are on the rise but this development is somewhat offset by the fact that Dredge is now a de facto blue deck. It does everything Xerox hopes to accomplish but more potently--flooding the board with minimal investment and backing it with a wall of countermagic developed via hyperefficient filtering. Bazaar makes Dack Fayden look like a 7 CMC Theros rare.

That given, blue isn't waning; it's expanding overall by consuming what used to be a standalone Dredge archetype but then losing some market share to various Karn decks.

@brianpk80 I enjoyed that post.

Perhaps there should be a separation of objective "blue" to subjective "blue".

Yes, dredge is observably becoming more "blue" through the insertion of blue cards. That's a fact in the context of pitch dredge.

However in the subjective understanding of blue I believe that there is a dual axis "traditional" blue decks operate on.

A) counter magic
B) draw spells

Dredge has adopted the A, yet actively provided an antithesis to B (dredging to drawing) as the primary focus of their game plan.

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