@thecravenone said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@john-cox said in 5C Staxx 2019:

So whats the reason for the one crop rotation? Just one seems weird. šŸ¤”

To be quite honest, it's been in the list since I copied it from somewhere a decade ago. I've never felt a need to remove it (in fact, as I say in the cast, I have 2 slots that are kinda filler in the 2018 list). I've also never felt any need to have more.

It does allow some sweet lines. My favorite thing I've done with Crop Rotation is sac a turn 1 Workshop to get another turn 1 Workshop, casting multiple hate pieces or a Wurmcoil.

@dr-j said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@john-cox said in 5C Staxx 2019:

So whats the reason for the one crop rotation? Just one seems weird. šŸ¤”

Yeah, since you're not running Null Rod main, Expedition Map seems like the better choice.

I love 5c Stax and would love to see it come back, but running so many Karn, TGC seems iffy with that mana base. Running a few Maps to search for Academy would definitely help.

Map is certainly an interesting idea. I'll mull it over!

Do you do a quick ritual scarring when the Crop Rotation gets Misstepped and you Sinkhole yourself?

@nedleeds You are adorable. šŸ˜

@thecravenone @Naixin

The new Welder creature (Goblin Engineerer) seems incredible in both shells, giving you tutoring, redundancy, and...a non-misstepable creature. It doesn't interact with the opponent's artifacts but I assume you would still play Welder. How do you see this printing impacting your lists?

For reference:
0_1558668662809_b420c092-9353-4e85-a773-d43c2a652b6b-image.png

@chubbyrain

Iā€™m 100% going to test it. I may even play vault key now as an alternative win con. I think having 8 goblins will make cavern better too.

Turn 1 welder, turn 2 this for insert busted artifact is insane. Having Karn is also great. Man Iā€™m so happy.

last edited by Naixin

@thecravenone This is what I plan to test out next week. (Blatantly stealing your excellent formatting)

A few minor changes from your list;

Main

  • -1 stp, -1 karn, -1 dack, -1 crop rot / +2 dreadbore, +2 expidition map

  • I am going to try out dreadbore since you need an answer for an opposing karn/dack as well as creatures.

  • The singleton dack doesn't seem like the best choice, since if you are tutoring you just go for karn/power. I also don't think the deck has enough draw power/card selection to utilize him as a singleton.

  • The crop rotation is a leftover from back in 2005, before there were an extra 4 free counters for it. Changing to map just seems like a much better call.

  • 4 karn plus 2 tutors seems like a bit much, plus one less means slightly less stress on the mana base. Plus in this list there is no dack to discard extras.

Side

  • -1 Jester's Cap, -3 Grafdigger's Cage, -1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Wurmcoil Engine, +2 Abrade, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Witchbane Orb

  • Cap is not the awesome sauce it once was, fight me.

  • Cages are the most suspect cut, but bridge is an excellent answer to both oath and dredge, especially since it will be followed up with more lock pieces that eventually lead to lattice lock.

  • Ratchet bomb does little for you as a singleton, it is not something you will karn for as there are just better options. Plus it is stax, let the smokestack and wires do the work. If anything add a blast zone to the main.

  • Added an extra wurmcoil so you can side one in v shops and still karn for the other.

  • More abrade means more creature kill and the ability to put more artifacts in the yard to abuse welder.

  • Not having bridge in a karn deck is strange, it is an overpowered lock piece against everything except the 1/1 army from pyromancer. It buys a huge amount of time to set up smokestack/crucible, which is also a win con with b ring. This should be an auto include, possibly even over lattice.

  • Witchbane Orb is robbed from the brass city vault decks recently, it is an excellent hedge against hurk, and protects from tendrils, oath of druids, jace activations etc.

Has anyone considered Channel as a combo piece with Karn G.C.? For 10 life, you can Karn + Lattice on the same turn.

@billcopes said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Has anyone considered Channel as a combo piece with Karn G.C.? For 10 life, you can Karn + Lattice on the same turn.

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

@griselbrother

Yes. I brewed a r/g eldrazi list at the monthly vintage event that I attended last month. I based the idea around r/g eldrazi from modern.

I used channel to karn-lattice lock and cast eldrazi.

last edited by chikararyuu

@chikararyuu Seems like this idea may have a great addition with Force of Vigor. Care to share a list? šŸ™‚

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

last edited by fsecco

Elvish Spirit guide + Nature's Claim, Simian Spirit Guide +Shatering Spree. In about a month Force of Vigor
Thats about it.

@john-cox Force of Vigor doesn't work under Lattice. Spirit Guides are cool but if we're playing that it's because the meta is pretty warped toward Karn/Lattice. Winning list this week doesn't even pack Lattice.

@john-cox Crash, Pulverize, and Abolish work. Force of Vigor doesn't, as with lattice in play the cards in your hand are colorless.

@fsecco

since this thread is about 5c stax, i'll just pm my list.

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@chikararyuu Seems like this idea may have a great addition with Force of Vigor. Care to share a list? šŸ™‚

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

last edited by Griselbrother

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

That's not getting out of it. That's answering it. Floating mana is the same as countering - you were never "under it" in the first place. Attacking with creatures you can only do if your opponent misplays. It'd be equivalent to playing Standstill when you're behind. So those are not really answers to the card. Once it hits, getting out of it is very, very hard. I think Pulverize is the kind of answer we're going to see if this really becomes a player in the format.

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

That's not getting out of it. That's answering it. Floating mana is the same as countering - you were never "under it" in the first place. Attacking with creatures you can only do if your opponent misplays. It'd be equivalent to playing Standstill when you're behind. So those are not really answers to the card. Once it hits, getting out of it is very, very hard. I think Pulverize is the kind of answer we're going to see if this really becomes a player in the format.

Yeah, I also just said that it was by no means an auto win. But I'm not sure how attacking only worls if your opponent misplays.

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

But I'm not sure how attacking only worls if your opponent misplays.

If your opponent plays Lattice when you have a better board position than him and he has no way of dealing with your pressure and protecting Karn, he's not playing very well is he?

last edited by fsecco

It's sad to say that, unless you played back then, it's difficult to appreciate how dominant and ominipresent Goblin Welder was as a Vintage tactic. It was by far the best creature in the game.

It's still immensely powerful, and I applaud any effort to bring back 5c Stax. I like what you are doing here.

I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.

I feel Engineer is actually an upgrade on Welder, which is odd to say as I can definitely appreciate the historical implications @Smmenen alludes to of Welders past dominance. It's just Engineer feels a modernized version of the card that corrects the flaws and opens up new potential. I'm pretty excited to see what it can do in Vintage and Legacy. It's already making waves in Modern with Thopter/Sword + Urza. Give it a try.

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