@john-cox Crash, Pulverize, and Abolish work. Force of Vigor doesn't, as with lattice in play the cards in your hand are colorless.

@fsecco

since this thread is about 5c stax, i'll just pm my list.

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@chikararyuu Seems like this idea may have a great addition with Force of Vigor. Care to share a list? 🙂

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

last edited by Griselbrother

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

That's not getting out of it. That's answering it. Floating mana is the same as countering - you were never "under it" in the first place. Attacking with creatures you can only do if your opponent misplays. It'd be equivalent to playing Standstill when you're behind. So those are not really answers to the card. Once it hits, getting out of it is very, very hard. I think Pulverize is the kind of answer we're going to see if this really becomes a player in the format.

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@fsecco said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

Although Karn + Lattice is by no means a instant win, it's actually not a bad idea.

How do you get out of it? I mean, unless you already have more creatures in play than he does.

Attacking with creatures or floating mana in response to Lattice to destroy it.

That's not getting out of it. That's answering it. Floating mana is the same as countering - you were never "under it" in the first place. Attacking with creatures you can only do if your opponent misplays. It'd be equivalent to playing Standstill when you're behind. So those are not really answers to the card. Once it hits, getting out of it is very, very hard. I think Pulverize is the kind of answer we're going to see if this really becomes a player in the format.

Yeah, I also just said that it was by no means an auto win. But I'm not sure how attacking only worls if your opponent misplays.

@griselbrother said in 5C Staxx 2019:

But I'm not sure how attacking only worls if your opponent misplays.

If your opponent plays Lattice when you have a better board position than him and he has no way of dealing with your pressure and protecting Karn, he's not playing very well is he?

last edited by fsecco

It's sad to say that, unless you played back then, it's difficult to appreciate how dominant and ominipresent Goblin Welder was as a Vintage tactic. It was by far the best creature in the game.

It's still immensely powerful, and I applaud any effort to bring back 5c Stax. I like what you are doing here.

I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.

I feel Engineer is actually an upgrade on Welder, which is odd to say as I can definitely appreciate the historical implications @Smmenen alludes to of Welders past dominance. It's just Engineer feels a modernized version of the card that corrects the flaws and opens up new potential. I'm pretty excited to see what it can do in Vintage and Legacy. It's already making waves in Modern with Thopter/Sword + Urza. Give it a try.

@chubbyrain said in 5C Staxx 2019:

I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.

I know you joke but as a way to get Needle out through the deluge of Skillstep this Goblin is pretty sick. Still might not be fast enough vs. Bazaar on the draw.

@nedleeds said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@chubbyrain said in 5C Staxx 2019:

I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.

I know you joke but as a way to get Needle out through the deluge of Skillstep this Goblin is pretty sick. Still might not be fast enough vs. Bazaar on the draw.

It still contributes to non dead cards post board against Dredge. Worth looking at IMO.

@john-cox said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@nedleeds said in 5C Staxx 2019:

@chubbyrain said in 5C Staxx 2019:

I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.

I know you joke but as a way to get Needle out through the deluge of Skillstep this Goblin is pretty sick. Still might not be fast enough vs. Bazaar on the draw.

It still contributes to non dead cards post board against Dredge. Worth looking at IMO.

This deck in particular is one where you have the liberty to lean on Spyglass more than needle anyway and be "Misstep Proof". Providing you aren't Seppekuing yourself by casting Crop Rotation and Welder game 1.

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