Your B & R list? What would it look like?



  • I'm gonna propose a wildly interesting idea here and ask folks to make their own B/R list from the ground up. I want to lay a couple ground rules.

    1. No slamming someone's list out of the blue. I want to here well-defended positions from both the proposer and the responder.

    2. If you have a B/R list I want to see you defend the cards that SHOULD be on it.

    3. This is a ground up approach so we start from the assumption that nothing should be restricted and add cards to it with defense for each card. Don't take for granted that a card should or should not be on the list.

    4. Have fun with this! This should be an interesting thought experiment.

    Ok, without further adieu, here's my crack at it:

    1. Ancestral Recall - This card was printed during a period of time when drawing 3 cards was not as devastating as it now is and when the idea of "Card Advantage" was less understood/abused in the tournament environment. Magic was a table-top card game that had few moving parts and Ancestral was part of a natural cycle of five cards that all did something in the amount of 3. These cards were: Healing Salve (gain 3 life or prevent 3 damage), Ancestral Recall (target player draws 3 cards), Dark Ritual (3 black mana added to pool), Lightning Bolt (3 damage to any target), Giant Growth (+3/+3 to any creature). Now it is clear to the magic community that Ancestral is light years past the power level of the other 4 cards but Ritual and Bolt have seen Vintage play so they are clearly not bad cards. Once the power level of the cards in magic increased it became clear that 4x Recall decks would be absurd and lead to an almost entirely blue-mirror format that relied heavily on the die roll. This is an unacceptable meta-game to create for any format and so Ancestral Recall is restricted. It is likely to stay in the hall of restriction for all time.
    2. Balance - Folks have argued for this card’s unrestriction, but I would point to the fact that this card as a 4-of would all but seal the fate for creatures in the format. That is my primary reason for advocating it’s continued restriction, but I have another very good secondary reason. This card is unrestricted Mind Twist for 1W if placed in the correct deck. Mind Twist already earned itself restriction many years ago and that sort of effect is clearly hated by Vintage players. This card as a 4-of would put Mind Twist to shame. Do we really want a format where whoever got to drop his/her moxen first also has access to a discard 3 for 1W? I think that would be a pretty un-fun format and I would get bored with it pretty darn fast.
    3. Black Lotus - If it is unclear to folks why this card should ALWAYS stay restricted I’m not sure you should be playing magic. Being able to jump start your game to turn 3 or 4 on a consistent basis would turn the Vintage format into a derp turn 1 format where you are always 50% to win and 50% to lose based on whether you know how to flip a coin better than your opponent.
    4. Brainstorm - It pains me to say I want to keep this card restricted because I don’t think it is really THAT unfair and it certainly creates interesting lines of play when combined with shuffle effects. What I don’t like about Brainstorm is that it has the side effect of really homogenizing blue decks and makes it too easy to “just always have the force.” When combined with another blue draw engine of any potency Brainstorm basically reads “always have infinite forces no matter the point in the game you are at.” People think it’s un-fun to never get to cast a spell due to sphere lock? How about a game where you know you are running into a force of will wall and have literally no chance to dig out of it. Both seem equally miserable to me and that is why brainstorm should stay restricted.
    5. Demonic Tutor - This is simply the best tutor ever printed and the fact that you can chain it with dark rituals means that it can get out of hand on turn 1 too fast. The fact that DT can always find you Black Lotus and net you a mana makes it an exceptionally powerful swiss army knife. Dark Petition is rearing its ugly head as a pseudo Demonic Tutor, but that card at least requires some set-up and conditionality to work as DT does without any of that effort. DT is just an insane mistake on the part of R & D and definitely deserves its spot on the restricted list.
    6. Dig Through Time - With all the filter that exists in Vintage today, Dig through time just can’t remain unrestricted. Often it reads “Demonic Tutor myself twice for UU.” Sure it isn’t ACTUALLY Demonic Tutor, but it also is blue (always a plus in Vintage) and, in a carefully built list, finds you interchangeably powerful cards most of the time. I find this card extremely scary because of its utility in finding silver bullets and combinations of 2 cards that answer most game states against most decks. I would actually put this card above Treasure Cruise in power level and I’ll explain why when I get to Cruise.
    7. Fastbond - As long as Gush remains unrestricted I don’t think it is safe to call for an unrestriction of this card. Fastbond leads to crazy wins with Gush and not having to tutor for the card would potentially make a degenerate and consistent Gush deck that might take over the format. I don’t even what to imagine what 4 F-Bond Gush Sylvan Mentor might look like (ewwwww). That said, if Gush were restricted, it’s possible that 4 F-Bond could be a thing and not break the format. I’d have to wait and see if the Gush restriction ever happens though. For now, no way jose.
    8. Imperial Seal - Despite being sorcery speed, I think this card needs to stay restricted due Time Vault/Key combo being a thing. Being able to assemble that combo with devastating consistency by around turn 3 would give a lot of decks that need time to develop a really hard time. I think unrestricted Imperial Seal would lead to too many deterministic wins that would reduce variance in the format and nullify a lot of playskill.
    9. Library of Alexandria - Unrestricted Ancestral Recall is unacceptable right? Well this card can put Recall to shame in the long game. You can also stack the triggers and get 2 draws out of 2 Libraries. Heeeeelllll no. I’d like to see a format not based on having 15 cards in my hand at all times thank you very much.
    10. Lion’s Eye Diamond - Some of the interactions that got this card restricted are no longer in existence, but I do think the ability to Petition and hold priority while sacrificing LED is probably too powerful and consistent to be fair (especially when this can lead to a lot Mind’s Desires for 5+). It is a high risk play vs. FoW decks, but often TPS can mitigate that uncertainty by running gitaxian probe and discard spells. This would also potential put Belcher over the top and make it too strong in the format. Lotus with conditions is still too good in my opinion.
    11. Lodestone Golem - I think this guy should stay on the list for now because either Golem or Chalice probably needed to go to keep the shop menace under control and I’m more for getting rid of Golem than Chalice. I think Chalice did great things for allowing the existence and competitive edge to decks like hatebears, merfolk, the answer, christmas beatings, and many others. Chalice diversified the format and it gave shops a tool to fight the combo decks that was very potent. Golem + Chalice was such a strong opener and I acknowledge player frustration over that seemingly uninteractive and deterministic line of play. I think Chalice without Golem would diversify design and make for two fantastic shop decks that would seek to do totally different things. Those decks would be Stax Prison, and Shop Aggro. Both could support 4 Chalice but would have a very different end game. Lodestone homogenized shops in a way that few other artifacts ever have and so, for the same reason as Brainstorm, I think its restriction was warranted. If there was ever a card printed that really hated on 4x Lodestone shops but NOT other shop builds then perhaps Golem could come off the list, but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
    12. Mana Crypt - 2 Free mana would lead to way too many turn 1 kills using cards like Tinker, Belcher, Time Vault, and many many others. The fact that turn 1 can be simply a set-up for a turn 2 kill is also no bueno for the format. This guy stays restricted for that reason.
    13. Mana Vault - See Mana Crypt
    14. Merchant Scroll - This card funnels way too easily to Gush and Ancestral Recall. The fact that you can just start chaining Gushes is what makes this card too good in my opinion. I also want to leave this card restricted because I’d like to take Flash OFF the list and this card works way too well with Flash.
    15. Mind’s Desire - Desiring into Desire is just the epitome of the dumb derps. Such lines of play completely circumvent Force of Will and basically win through any uncontested game-state. This card gets out of hand too fast and is too hard to interact with to be unrestricted. It is also blue so ya know.
    16., 17. Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet - These two moxen are clearly too powerful for Vintage because they power out the two most broken colors in Vintage and allow for skipped land drops that hang around for the rest of the game. At times they can even be strong than Black Lotus due to their reusability.
    18., 19., 20. Mox Emerald, Mox Ruby, Mox Pearl - It’s less clear that these should be restricted, but they cause too many crazy turn 1s from combo decks when allowed to exist in multiples. The five we are allowed in total already borders on broken and allows for a pretty consistent turn 1 mox but at least it isn’t deterministic and at least you can get the wrong color for the situation. +1 colorless mana on turn 1 is pretty busted, but +2 consistently would go too far in my view. For this reason, all moxen are to stay restricted.
    21. Mystical Tutor - The toolbox for this card is no less powerful now than it was years ago when it found its way on to the restricted list. While Mental Misstep is a very good counter to this card, it doesn’t stop the Mystical Tutor player from running his/her own Missteps as well. This card finds, Yawgmoth’s Will, Draw 7’s, Time Walk, and DT. I think that is quite the toolbox of brokenness and I’d rather not blue mages have access to 4 of these puppies. Instant speed vaults this card waayyyy up over Personal Tutor and so PT can remain unrestricted.
    22. Necropotence - Some have argued for the unrestriction of this card. All I’d say is, look at history folks! this card is cast-able turn 1 off a measly Dark Ritual. After that you can quickly take over most games with card advantage and things become pretty deterministic with tight play and deck design. No way do we allow this card as a 4-of in Ritual Storm.
    23. Sol Ring - Though this has less raw power than Mana Crypt and can be misstepped, I do think it would make the Belcher deck way too consistent and give a bit advantage to big blue decks as well. Unrestricted Sol Ring would likely get Thirst and Gifts restricted again.
    24. Strip Mine - This card USED to be unrestricted. I don’t think it can be now because Crucible of Worlds is a card and folks actually like getting to play a game of magic. Strip lock just answers too many things and leaves players with outs that are too narrow and hard to justify for inclusion.
    25. Time Vault - If this card were a 4-of the amount of mindless turn 1 wins would be endless and it would basically come down to “do you have the force?” kinds of interactions. Moxen, Mishra’s Workshop and Tolarian Academy make it a very bad call to ever consider unrestricting this card.
    26. Time Walk - This card may be one of the most powerful cards ever printed. The ability to take an extra turn for 1U is just insane. Imagine how busted this card makes combat math with Mentor. Now imagine this card with Jace, Dack, Bob, Tinker—> Bot, Oath etc., etc., etc. This card’s upward limit is astronomical and you can just never give your opponent a turn from turn 1 of the game with this card as a 4-of. It could essentially be like a Time Vault combo deck but without out all the of that pesky need for a 2-card combo.
    27. Timetwister - At first glance it might seem that this could be a 4-of and not hurt the format. Think again! This is no Windfall. It has the ability to make turn 1 decks brutally consistent and require a mere pact of negation to win through 1 force. No Thanks!
    28. Tinker - Though this card’s popularity has gone down in recent time I don’t think unrestricting it would be a good idea because it’s easy to imagine a control deck that just runs 4 of these babies and counters every spell an opponent could cast while powering out a blightsteel and winning on the following turn.
    29. Tolarian Academy - No no no no no no NO NO NO NO NO. That is all.
    30. Treasure Cruise - This card is borderline OK but it does create engine decks that start to feel a lot like 4-brainstorm decks used to where they “always had the force.” I don’t like blue decks always having the force. I like there to be some work involved in keeping a full grip. This card is just too easy to cast.
    31. Trinisphere - This card is so deterministic in Shops builds that just about the only two cards that interact with it in time are Force and Wasteland. That is too narrow an answer suite to allow a card to stay unrestricted. If more anti-Trinisphere tech was printed that could be played in different decks I’d be more than happy to consider unrestricting this guy, but, as it stands. . . nope.
    32. Vampiric Tutor - The same reasons I said Imperial Seal can’t be unrestricted, but this is even worse because it is instant speed and so you can not telegraph it and surprise kill your opponent much more easily when they tap out.
    33. Wheel of Fortune - The fact that you are assured 7 cards from this card make it way to strong in storm builds. I can’t justify taking it off the list despite it being red because I think it would lead to too many turn 1 kills and turn 2 kills with 1-2 duress backup.
    34. Yawgmoth’s Will - While I would love to see a format with 4 Wills, I do think that that is just asking for trouble and would potentially break storm decks wide open. I’d also be frightened of recursive Key-Vault lists having access to more than 1 Will. It would make blowing up either half of the combo rather meaningless. Keeping this card restricted is not as obvious as it might seem though since it isn’t THAT good to Will more than once in a game. It is still quite good though and I don’t think we can play with that kind of fire.

    So that’s my restricted list. What do you think? Note that I kept a LOT of cards off the list that are currently on it. Thoughts on those? Maybe I’ll make another post to defend why I took certain cards off next. Anyway, happy posting!

    -Storm



  • The current restricted list, with lodestone golem removed.

    But in all seriousness, I'd also remove Imperial Seal from the list. It's never played as it is, and perfectly balanced in a world of Dack Faydens and Jace fateseals. I would like to see Zodiac Dragon restricted and have its text changed to do what it physically says on the card.



  • This post is deleted!


  • @gkraigher said:

    The current restricted list, with lodestone golem removed.

    But in all seriousness, I'd also remove Imperial Seal from the list. It's never played as it is, and perfectly balanced in a world of Dack Faydens and Jace fateseals. I would like to see Zodiac Dragon restricted and have its text changed to do what it physically says on the card.

    Awesome! Thanks for the explanation. I'm still not sure that Jace Fateseals are enough to stop Seal from being too dangerous with Time Vault decks.



  • Two of the cards on your list (Fastbond and Merchant Scroll) are there because Gush is dumb. Fastbond is interesting as a combo with Crucible that's...meh-ish. Unrestricted Fastbond potentially enables a Lands deck.

    Mox Pearl doesn't need to be restricted. It creates a Mono-White Prison deck as white is off-color for most combo decks.

    Trinisphere should never have been restricted. Non-interactive? Yes. Format balancing? Yes. Fair without Lodestone unrestricted? Yes.

    Necropotence isn't what it was, especially in a world with unrestricted Trinisphere.

    Library of Alexandria is really only critical in the blue mirror. Unrestricted this makes blue decks weaker to combo and prison.

    Strip Mine deserves a turn in the sun, but not in the same world as unrestricted Trinisphere. Trinisphere nerfs combo while Strip really just attacks decks light on Moxen

    Chalice of the Void amplifies the value of going first. It's restricted in favor of not making the format feel like a coin flip.

    Demonic Consultation is ridiculously dumb and belongs on the restricted list. Unrestricted Brainstorm has nothing on this.



  • @AmbivalentDuck said:

    Two of the cards on your list (Fastbond and Merchant Scroll) are there because Gush is dumb. Fastbond is interesting as a combo with Crucible that's...meh-ish. Unrestricted Fastbond potentially enables a Lands deck.

    Mox Pearl doesn't need to be restricted. It creates a Mono-White Prison deck as white is off-color for most combo decks.

    Trinisphere should never have been restricted. Non-interactive? Yes. Format balancing? Yes. Fair without Lodestone unrestricted? Yes.

    Necropotence isn't what it was, especially in a world with unrestricted Trinisphere.

    Library of Alexandria is really only critical in the blue mirror. Unrestricted this makes blue decks weaker to combo and prison.

    Strip Mine deserves a turn in the sun, but not in the same world as unrestricted Trinisphere. Trinisphere nerfs combo while Strip really just attacks decks light on Moxen

    Chalice of the Void amplifies the value of going first. It's restricted in favor of not making the format feel like a coin flip.

    Demonic Consultation is ridiculously dumb and belongs on the restricted list. Unrestricted Brainstorm has nothing on this.

    I don't think you can allow unrestricted mox pearl because it would also enable a more consistent belcher list and that deck doesn't need help. There are just too many dumb things one can do with that much fast mana. Perhaps I'm wrong though. I also think that with Mentor around I'd rather not see 4 Mox Pearl.

    Trinisphere into Smokestack? I think not. That is just as game-ending as Trinisphere into Lodestone.

    Consult forces non-highlander deck construction. Is that not a good thing for the format?



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    I don't think you can allow unrestricted mox pearl because it would also enable a more consistent belcher list and that deck doesn't need help. There are just too many dumb things one can do with that much fast mana. Perhaps I'm wrong though. I also think that with Mentor around I'd rather not see 4 Mox Pearl.

    I think the spike in Thalia shops would make up for it.

    Trinisphere into Smokestack? I think not. That is just as game-ending as Trinisphere into Lodestone.

    There was a pretty widespread outcry back when WotC first restricted 3sphere. It really wasn't dominant.

    Consult forces non-highlander deck construction. Is that not a good thing for the format?

    No, because it enables turn 0/1 combo decks more than anything else. 4 Consult Ad Naus isn't beatable unless you win the die roll or run 3+ mindbreak trap.



  • My list would look identical except necro.
    I can't see anyone running 4 Necro instead of Oath for Gris. Maybe 2 Necro but never more than that in a deck. Not even storm.
    I hate seeing chalice restricted. Ponder and Consultation can actually come off if Chalice came off also. Flash is a no-no. Not as long as we have Gush Unrestricted. Crazy efficient combo enabler. Same rationale as sol ring and its cousins for Belcher.
    So, Yeah, same list with Necro unrestricted and Flash restricted :)
    @Stormanimagus



  • @Ten-Ten said:

    My list would look identical except necro.
    I can't see anyone running 4 Necro instead of Oath for Gris. Maybe 2 Necro but never more than that in a deck. Not even storm.
    I hate seeing chalice restricted. Ponder and Consultation can actually come off if Chalice came off also. Flash is a no-no. Not as long as we have Gush Unrestricted. Crazy efficient combo enabler. Same rationale as sol ring and its cousins for Belcher.
    So, Yeah, same list with Necro unrestricted and Flash restricted :)
    @Stormanimagus

    Flash without Scroll AND Brainstorm is quite clunky actually. It suffers from Oath problems but it can't just Show and Tell the cards into play ftw. Protean Hulk Flash relied a lot on Brainstorm back in the day to put back combo pieces. Flash also, often loses if it doesn't win due to triggers from stuff Pact of Negation or Green Pact. Maybe I'm underestimating the card, but I think it would be no more than a decent combo finisher. It would be interesting to see it make a return and see if that allows for the unrestriction of Lodestone because Flash is a natural predator for shops. Those are just my thoughts.

    -Storm



  • Restricting gush, and unrestricted fast bond is a very interesting proposition.

    I think legacy lands could be a vintage deck in that world.

    Think about Crucible of Worlds, Fastbond, ghost quarter, fetch land. Deck would be legit. But not unfair like time vault/key.

    Bazaars and workshops. Life from the loan. A man can only dream.

    Fastbond should probably stay restricted.



  • Current list with these changes.
    Unrestrict chalice of the void: the card was seeing play in multiple fish decks as well as control decks that utilized it to prey on greedy blue decks at the time of is restriction. The idea that moxen should be played uninhibited is ridiculous and the line of reasoning fed to us about the restriction of it is insulting to people who build decks to play around multiple strategies. The aforementioned greedy blue decks and combo decks have become a very large portion of the meta game and need to be kept in check. It is not as asymmetrical in the way that lodestone golem is nore does it win the game on is own.
    Restrict monastery mentor: this card has entirely too much power to be put on a single creature with no draw back. It was a mistake to print it in the first place, alas here we are. It's ability to overpower and overwhelm by growing up and out puts it on par with dredge in terms of how aggressively it grows without requiring a deck to be played at card disadvantage or with a very specific set of cards. It only asks that you cast something other than creature spells.
    Restrict gush. Since it's unrestriction it has had cards printed that only make it more obscene. Young Pyromancer, Delver of secrets, managorger Hydra, monastery mentor, the advent of the prowess mechanic. It's format warping. It has the most efficient draw engine in the format that works in various iterations with different cards and is muscling out other draw strategies from the format. Both thirst for knowledge and gifts ungiven were untested and didn't make a dent in the format.



  • Ancestral Recall
    Balance
    Black Lotus
    Brainstorm
    Channel
    Demonic Consultation
    Demonic Tutor
    Dig Through Time
    Fastbond
    Imperial Seal
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Lodestone Golem
    Lotus Petal
    Mana Crypt
    Mana Vault
    Memory Jar
    Merchant Scroll
    Mind's Desire
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Jet
    Mox Pearl
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Sapphire
    Mystical Tutor
    Necropotence
    Ponder
    Sol Ring
    Strip Mine
    Time Vault
    Time Walk
    Timetwister
    Tinker
    Tolarian Academy
    Treasure Cruise
    Trinisphere
    Vampiric Tutor
    Wheel of Fortune
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Yawgmoth's Will
    

    I would unrestrict Chalice and Flash as the first two easy unrestricts. Yes, Flash is broken with Academy Rector, but it can still be stopped with Leyline, and other graveyard hate. It's much less consistent with Merchant Scroll restricted.

    Library is insane in slow blue mirrors, but not that great in Gush decks in multiples, and terrible against Dredge and Storm combo. I would unrestrict Library in any environment with Gush legal.

    I also like the idea of unrestricting Windfall more than I used to. I think it's a good weapon against Gush decks. I'd be open to that.

    It's interesting to see my list of least unrestrictable cards from 2011: http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-what-is-the-least-unrestrictable-card-in-vintage/

    A handful of of those cards are now unrestricted. And I had Thirst and Gifts pretty high up.

    It's possible that Bargain is unrestrictable these days. Griselbrand only costs 2 more, and can be used with Show and Tell just as effectively. It only costs 1 more than Dark Petition or Ad Nauseum. I'm really not sure how good a 4 Bargain deck would be.

    There are times when I'd also like to unrestrict Demonic Consultation. But it's too insane with Laboratory Maniac.



  • Library, Strip Mine, Fastbond, Lotus Petal, Ponder, Windfall, Twister, Wheel, and Chalice off.

    Dark Petition, Monastery Mentor, Gush, and Crucible of Worlds on.



  • Necropotence and Yawgmoth's bargain definitely need to stay restricted the way things are now. Giving dark petition decks access to 4 necropotence would be brutal, it's already a card you want to tutor for a lot of the time. Yawg bargain is only one more mana than dark petition and seeing how easy to cast petition has proven to be, I don't think we want to go there.

    I would personally like to see cards that are fringe as is come off. I'm thinking of cards like Memory Jar, Windfall, Demonic consultation, mystical tutor, imperial seal, Channel and maybe Flash.

    Most Petition decks don't run Memory jar or windfall as is so I doubt that these would do much to power up combo. On the other hand 4x memory jar could be a solid draw engine in a Metalworker shops deck. Windfall is just too unreliable and inconsistent nowadays and hasn't made the cut for a while now.

    Consult is really not that insane and Ad nauseam is just a worse card than dark petition at this point so I don't think anything really scary would happen. Maybe decks running x4 combos get a boost like Dark Depths, Leyline + helm combo or maybe even a lab maniac deck.

    Mystical tutor and imperial seal see increasingly less play and the card disadvantage is pretty bad, I don't see which deck would play these in multiples and I'm pessimistic that deck would be any good. Personally I rarely play mystical in most of my blue decks anymore since it's barely better than preordain most of the time. Imperial seal is just worse than Dark petition by a wide margin or you would see people running a split of 3 petitions and 1 seal more often, especially with 4x gitaxian probe. Although it may be an availability issue more than anything.

    Channel seems more like a casual card at this point for vintage? Double green pay 15 life for your emrakul + time walk trigger is about as broken as it gets for channel and honestly that doesn't really seem better than show and tell into Griselbrand pay 14 life to find time walk or your game winning combo.

    Flash + Rector into omniscience is certainly extremely powerful but the fact it that the deck isn't very good at all nowadays. The lack of manipulation (I mean brainstorm) forces these kinds of deck to be victim of their own inherent inconsistency and dread draws. So I think the power level would be acceptable, hopefully it would just push the deck from fringe/rogue to a viable deck.

    That said I don't thing most of these cards contribute any additional diversity to the format so If I was the DCI ,I would probably take a very close look at Memory jar and flash, and unrestrict channel + Windfall just because they are already irrelevant.



  • @Serracollector I think it's really interesting to consider switching fastbond and crucible so long as Gush is restricted. Would make for some interesting options on a more lands focused side of things without the risk of consistently getting locked out with bond-crucible-stripmine



  • @Macdeath said:

    I would personally like to see cards that are fringe as is come off. I'm thinking of cards like Memory Jar, Windfall, Demonic consultation, mystical tutor, imperial seal, Channel and maybe Flash.

    Most Petition decks don't run Memory jar or windfall as is so I doubt that these would do much to power up combo. On the other hand 4x memory jar could be a solid draw engine in a Metalworker shops deck.

    There is no way memory jar should come off the restricted list. Around 2006-2008 I ran a welder/storm combo that used welder to abuse memory jar. Having 2 jar triggers on the stack meant I got the 7 cards I wanted. I could easily cycle 2 or 3 jar triggers and have my pick of hands. Combined with duress (and now with gitaxian probe) being able to see my opponents hand and then stack the triggers to the most advantageous outcome for me is broken.

    I would like to see brainstorm, ponder, mystical tutor and chalice and lodestone come off the list and workshop go on. I know almost nobody else will agree with me on workshop but name one other mana accelerator of that efficiency that is unrestricted. Maybe if it was legendary I would feel different.

    I agree flash can probably safely come off. It may even spawn a deck or two. But as others have said, we have better tools now to fight it so I doubt it would be overwhelming.

    Mystical tutor and merchant scroll I think need to stay on. I think blue control and blue draw which is already very efficient becomes even more efficient with instant speed, cheap tutors to grab whatever you need.



  • Library of Alexandria is a very polarizing card, and has been talked about in the past.

    I think Library is the single best magic card ever printed. It taps to draw a card and it taps for mana, it costs a land drop.

    It's not just the blue decks that would benefit from its unrestriction, but dredge. And I think if dredge had 4 libraries in it, the deck would be nearly unstoppable.

    It's just too powerful, and how the ability stacks with multiples makes it too strong IMO to take off the list.


  • TMD Supporter

    BANNED:
    All cards currently banned, and also Time Vault and Blightsteel Colossus.
    Reasoning:
    Time Vault creates some of the most swingy, least interesting games of magic. I have never liked games where you 'lose' the game without actually losing.
    Blightsteel Colossus: This card, like Time Vault, is ulta-swingy. Easily dealt with? Yes. But it's choked out every other viable tinker robot because there's no reason NOT to play One-Shot-Robot when you're playing tinker.

    RESTRICTED
    Remove:
    Chalice of the Void
    Lodestone Golem
    Lotus Petal
    Ponder
    Windfall
    Yawgmoth's Bargain

    Add:
    Bridge from Below
    Monastery Mentor
    Gush
    Oath of Druids
    Mishra's Workshop
    Jace, The Mindsculptor



  • I think windfall falls in the category of cards that "make your opponent take an unwanted mulligan on turn 1" that is more soul crushing than turn 1 lodestone golem, turn 2 lodestone golem.

    The more effects like this you have, the easier it is to build around them. Cards like chrome mox, spirit guides, and mox opal all of a sudden become pretty busted when you can rely on this effect.



  • Here's my Banned and Restricted List:

    BANNED

    Advantageous Proclamation
    Backup Plan
    Brago's Favor
    Double Stroke
    Immediate Action
    Iterative Analysis
    Muzzio's Preparations
    Power Play
    Secret Summoning
    Secrets of Paradise
    Sentinel Dispatch
    Unexpected Potential
    Worldknit
    (Note: Physical dexterity cards are not banned and function as printed)

    RESTRICTED

    (1) Ante Cards - These do exactly what they say they do. Just because you don't have to ante initially doesn't mean that you can't be forced to use that zone as the game goes on. Go ahead, raise the stakes of this particular game. The opponent can always concede instead of risking their Lotus.

    Amulet of Quoz
    Bronze Tablet
    Contract from Below
    Darkpact
    Demonic Attorney
    Rebirth
    Tempest Efreet
    Timmerian Fiends

    (2) Overpowered Cards - Cards that have such a broken effect that they simply cannot be allowed to be played in multiples. Basically these cards draw too many cards, produce too much mana, or cheat mana costs to easily.

    Ancestral Recall
    Black Lotus
    Channel
    Demonic Consultation
    Demonic Tutor
    Dig Through Time
    Fastbond
    Imperial Seal
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Lotus Petal
    Mana Crypt
    Mana Vault
    Memory Jar
    Merchant Scroll
    Mind's Desire
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Jet
    Mox Pearl
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Sapphire
    Mystical Tutor
    Sol Ring
    Strip Mine
    Time Vault
    Time Walk
    Timetwister
    Tinker
    Tolarian Academy
    Treasure Cruise
    Vampiric Tutor
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Yawgmoth's Will
    (Notable exclusions: Balance, Brainstorm, Ponder, Library, Golem, Draw-7s, and Library not restricted. Reviving full-strength Shops makes the U dig spells safe, and reviving Balance makes Shops safe.)

    Philosophy: Make Vintage a place where you truly can play with ALL of your cards, and balance the format by allowing everyone to do broken things instead of trying to ban all the fun absurd combos and make it into Modern 2.0. Ante.dec would be a whole new archetype that, like Dredge, attacks the meta from a totally different axis -- "raising the stakes" and putting pressure on the opponent's psyche.



  • based off of the current restricted list here is what i would take off
    lodestone golem-the card kept the blue decks in check and was very beatable
    windfall-this is a risky one but the variance in it is why i say it should be unrestricted, its either great, or a dead card and can be a new draw engine for some decks
    flash- i think this would be an ok card to unrestrict as it would open the doors to a new combo deck with either hulk or academy rector, and one card combos is nothing new (doomsday)

    a few cards im iffy on are demonic consultation, its almost a fair card but not quiet. i feel like library is almost safe to unrestrict because (with my list) you are competing with gush and windfall engines. there is a chance that with all three unrestricted blue would be too good, but im not sure, so library isnt quiet safe yet. other than the three i mentioned earlier, i feel the restricted list should stay the same, 3sphere is way too good, as is chalice, dig is way to much card advantage, and 5 ancestral recalls is just broken.


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