Your B & R list? What would it look like?

My response to that has always been.... we already play vintage mtg... we really can't count to 3 by integers?

@joshuabrooks I wonder if it would be okay to unrestrict Brainstorm if LSG and Chalice were unrestricted as well though...

Playing with ante cards is win-win if you're doing a play test tournament, too. You win a sharpied basic land.... but now your deck has a second lotus all night long. 🙂

@evouga said:

@MaximumCDawg Inclusion of the ante cards is a very intriguing choice. Most of these are very bad; however Bronze Tablet and Timmerian Fiends both are 10-damage single-card combos in a lot of cases (when your opponent risks losing their Mox) and Contract from Below maybe be too busted even as a singleton.

Maybe, but so is Black Lotus 🙂

Also I think Darkpact's current Oracle text may be broken, if I understand the rules correctly: can't you concede between the ownership change in the first sentence, and the exchange in the second?

Yeah, I think so, but the Oracle text is different from the printed text; the exchange is printed (dare I say, "intended?") to be simultaneous.

I would unrestrict Chalice of the Void, Flash, and Windfall--I would also consider unrestricting Library of Alexandria, but I'm hesitant on that one. I think Chalice is actually good for the format, in that it enables people without power to police and keep pace those who do have jewelry. It empowers fish and hatebear decks as well. I think Shops with Chalice but not Lodestone is fine, in that it improves their locking capabilities but doesn't kill you at the same time. Flash seems bad without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll. Windfall is maybe a little risky, but I think it would be mostly fine.

I would consider unrestricting Gush, Mentor, both, or neither.

I would not do all of this at once.

I liked the Vintage emta before the Lodestone Restriction. Apparently some people didn't like that meta so I would try:
-Unrestrict Chalice of the Void

Chalice pushes decks to use a wider variety of mana costs instead of spamming one-mana cantrips. I would also consider unrestricting some cards. Memory Jar seems relatively safe to unrestrict. It would help combo but jar is expensive and weak to null-rod. In order to help combo I would conisder unrestricting imperial seal. The card is very costly in terms of cards and life and petition already exists. I also think its possible we could unrestrict merchant scroll and//or mystical tutor but I'm not sure that this would help the format.

There are three different but overlapping reasons for restricting a card in Vintage.

  1. Its power in one specific strategy is such that it would make that strategy unstoppable in the metagame. This is the classic and usual justification for restricting or banning cards, though true examples are rarer in Vintage than in other formats -- perhaps the recently-added Lodestone Golem will serve as a concrete example.

  2. The card unacceptably increases the variances of the format as a whole, without benefiting any specific strategy. Consider Black Lotus, for instance; certainly unrestricting Lotus would benefit some decks (e.g. combo) more than others, but the lowest-order result of unrestricting Lotus would be a much faster format, without ensuring the dominance of any one particular strategy. Now I'm certainly not a fan of a turn-0 format, where success hinges largely on the die roll; on the other hand, I view this justification with a dose of a suspicion. Vintage is all about the broken, early-game plays; who is to say that this amount of variance in Vintage is OK, but that amount is now over the line? It's all very fuzzy and subjective to me.

  3. The card doesn't dramatically increase variance or stunt the metagame, but simply leads to an unfun play experience. This was large part of the justification for restricting both Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. This criterion is of course incredibly subjective -- the card is unfun according to whom?

My personal philosophy on the restricted list is that the composition of the list should be as conservative as possible. I understand the people saying, "Vintage isn't broken, why fix it?" but would prefer a policy that is as close as possible to the format's stated goal of allowing players to play with all of their cards.

My list therefore would be:

Restricted:
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Brainstorm
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind's Desire
Moxen
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Vault
Time Walk
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

Unbanned and restricted:
Shahrazad

Unerratad and restricted:
Lotus Vale
Scorched Ruin
Zodiac Dragon

@Princess_Power said:

I liked the Vintage emta before the Lodestone Restriction. Apparently some people didn't like that meta so I would try:
-Unrestrict Chalice of the Void

Chalice pushes decks to use a wider variety of mana costs instead of spamming one-mana cantrips. I would also consider unrestricting some cards. Memory Jar seems relatively safe to unrestrict. It would help combo but jar is expensive and weak to null-rod. In order to help combo I would conisder unrestricting imperial seal. The card is very costly in terms of cards and life and petition already exists. I also think its possible we could unrestrict merchant scroll and//or mystical tutor but I'm not sure that this would help the format.

If the absurdity of New Phyrexia didnt exist Seal might be OK, but frankly Gitaxian Probe is dumb now 4x Seals would be insane. Also, without an EM reprint it would be 3K.

@evouga Why Wheel and not Twister?

@nedleeds I struggled with where to place Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, and Windfall.

Land-Mox-Mox-Draw7 on the play is brutal for any of these three cards. Windfall rapidly loses value after turn 1 except against control decks, which should have no problem countering the Windfall.

Wheel is much more powerful than Timetwister as it stuffs the graveyard with spells to be recurred using Yawgmoth's Will etc, while also turning on Dark Petition; Timetwister has negative synergy with cards that interact with the graveyard. The dream with Twister is to keep Twisting into more Twisters, all while building up more and more artifact mana for a combo kill; however in practice I think a deck built around this plan would be as fragile as it is fast (see for instance Belcher). Another possible concern is the "unfun" factor of being forced to mulligan by the opponent on a regular basis. But weighing all of these factors, I'd unrestrict Timetwister while leaving Wheel restricted; Timetwister is too fragile and too dangerous to the caster in many situations to earn a spot on the pruned Restricted List with its fellow Power Nine members.

@evouga I like your pruned restricted list a lot, and it's similar to what I would do. However, I would not have Mind's Desire there. Yes, Desire into Desire is a win, but casting a Desire with reasonable storm is a win anyway. A fully powered Shop deck would keep it under lock pretty effectively, too. Plus, the card is tons of fun. Necropotence probably doesn't even belong in this powered up format.

I wonder how dangerous 4 Fastbond would be.

last edited by Hrishi
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