Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?

@thewhitedragon69 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

It's not about making more deck types in the format.

@moorebrother1 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

I think there is room in Vintage for many more decks in the meta-game and I think the cost is preventing new players from getting into paper.

Ok, buddy. I'll answer the OP's question while you answer the ghosts in your head.

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

I have 0 interest in playing any format as a Proxy format, high cost or not.

Making your own game pieces is one step removed from this format just becoming a fan driven format where we start developing our own card designs. The more it becomes like that the less WOTC would ever support it to the point where it would kill the format itself, and I would much rather have a restrictive format than a dead one.

This 100%. We might as well be Decipher Star Wars. Nobody has a right to play or engage in any commercially supported (by WotC in this case) hobby for free. Vintage, Legacy, Draft or F1 racing ... they are all expensive hobbies from the point of view of different people.

That being said, local events held for no prizes in venues with beer flying around make sense for proxies if only to keep the absurdly valuable cards from getting destroyed.

If you want to play Vintage for less than paper there is MTGO. If you want to just play Vintage with friends there's nothing stopping you from proxying or using Cockatrice.

If you want to play sanctioned paper Vintage there's nothing that says you have to play powered. Many organizers have generously added budget prizes. Certainly printings in the last 5 years have introduced some bonkers additions to non-under-powered decks.

@moorebrother1 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

@craw_advantage The prospect of only having 2 or 3 paper events is the reality of Vintage right now. The interesting thing is that Old School has several well attended paper events without proxies.

I can barely keep up with the number of Old School events and the attendance is typically more that 32. I picked that because it is the So Many Insane Plays cutoff.

Is this more of a card pool issue? Is it nostalgia? Why is that player base able to sustain more events, at least for now, for paper events?

Most North American Old School events allow IE/CE. They should have been legalized for sanctioned Magic years ago with Innistrads introduction of not Magic backed Magic cards.

@moorebrother1 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

@craw_advantage The prospect of only having 2 or 3 paper events is the reality of Vintage right now. The interesting thing is that Old School has several well attended paper events without proxies.

I can barely keep up with the number of Old School events and the attendance is typically more that 32. I picked that because it is the So Many Insane Plays cutoff.

Is this more of a card pool issue? Is it nostalgia? Why is that player base able to sustain more events, at least for now, for paper events?

Old School events have great turnout because they are fun, and very different from sanctioned magic tournaments. They're usually in a venue that serves drinks, and they're run by community members who do a lot of work to make sure everyone has a good time. That sort of event doesn't exist for Vintage at the moment.

I totally agree that vintage events should be allow proxies. All of the events that I have run allowed proxies. But if you want to get new blood in, you have to convince them that it's worth their time to build a deck (or borrow one) and show up.

So I can't speak for everything regarding Old School vs Vintage, but I've found the breakneck pace with which people demand change in Vintage to be extremely harmful to paper Vintage. Since MODO moves so much faster, people are tired of a new metagame in a week and begin to loudly proclaim on social media and wherever else that the format "sucks" and that we need a change and X should be restricted and whatever else.

On the flip side, we used to have one Vintage event every few months. When you have zero investment in a format that you're sure is going to change by the time the next event comes around, it's really not something you want to get into. Add onto the fact that people loudly proclaim the format isn't fun when you've barely begun to even play it, and it's not hard to see that there is not much desire to play. We no longer have Vintage events every few months.

Old School, on the other hand, fulfils this desire extremely well. This is why I don't believe proxies will do much to change anything since the cards clearly exist. The desire to play Vintage as it currently is just isn't compatible with what players on MTGO want.

The thoughts that a proxy change would greatly increase Vintage's footprint are just as flawed as the thoughts that getting rid of the reserve list will cause vintage / legacy to become a premiere format. MTGO helped prove that this theory is false. MTGO proved that the price wall is not limiter as both Vintage and Legacy are, in general, less expensive to play than modern yet the participation levels for modern are exponentially higher. The gains of such a change end up being for a very small subset after the initial curiosity wears down.

@trius mtgo is not a vacuum; people can play modern on mtgo to practice for paper events much more than vintage/legacy players are, which is probably part of why there's more demand and higher prices for modern. I would expect that if vintage was everywhere in paper, affordable in paper, had regular GPs, etc, we would see more of it on mtgo as well.

You guys a bit hard to read. So, the take away is some proxies are good but this won’t grow the format. I guess I’ll just plan to attend the 2 major events and try to drive 2 or 3 hours once a month to play some paper vintage.

What about my other point? Does anyone think that MTGO is expensive for what it is? It could just be me.

@moorebrother1 mtgo is cheaper for vintage than modern, and not that much for a hobby really-with the deck rental services I think it's like 40 a month, plus whatever your event entry fees are.

I'm unsure what this thread is even trying to accomplish anymore. Literally anyone who wants to run a full proxy event can do so, right now. Go ahead. Prove to me that proxies would get a massive player surge.

It is patently stupid to expect WOTC to sanction it. You may as well ask them to support us using transformers cards in our decks as well because at least that is a product they make. Or Un-cards. Besides being a slippery slope to start with, they have no incentive to do this at all because it simpily will not grow the format in any sustainable way and will not make them any money. End of story.

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

You may as well ask them to support us using transformers cards in our decks as well because at least that is a product they make.

https://scryfall.com/card/h17/1/grimlock-dinobot-leader-grimlock-ferocious-king

@shopsaholic Didn't catch that comment. I don't know if proxies, or lack of, is a barrier to new decks, but it is a barrier to players joining paper vintage.

@nedleeds said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

Nobody has a right to play or engage in any commercially supported (by WotC in this case) hobby for free. Vintage, Legacy, Draft or F1 racing ... they are all expensive hobbies from the point of view of different people.

While this is true in the reality of it all, I always personally hated this argument. It is elitist - which the world is, I understand - but also implies there is no interest in facing the best of the best in cardboard battle...just the best of the wealthy.

I'd agree that they shouldn't join for free, but there's a difference between paying $50 to play and $25K to play.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

Vintage is primarily an online format now. Paper Vintage is more of a novelty than the best place to get competitive games. For that reason, I’d say little to no proxy events are better.

I only have a paper vintage deck to look at. It's mostly russian and has no proxies. I would never play a deck with a proxy in it in vintage.

@thewhitedragon69 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

While this is true in the reality of it all, I always personally hated this argument. It is elitist - which the world is, I understand - but also implies there is no interest in facing the best of the best in cardboard battle...just the best of the wealthy.

The whole format is elitist, it is the nature of the beast and one of its features, not a bug. Most eternal formats in most games are. If you want accessibility limited is a lot more open.

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

The whole format is elitist, it is the nature of the beast and one of its features, not a bug. Most eternal formats in most games are. If you want accessibility limited is a lot more open.

Why is it a feature?

@garbageaggro

Standard developer cover-up to start calling glitches, features.

The format for Magic is a concession to the fact that they did not know what they were doing with card designs at the onset of the game. Banned and restricted lists were pieced together to give the format some structure to make it possible, but it is still a format of overpowered cards from the dawn of the game that will not be reprinted, in part created to placate card speculators so that there reserve list cards held value. I think I can reasonably say that if the lotus and moxen were not legal in any format they would drop in price as they would be relegated to collectors items.

Look at the eternal formats for any CCG that has lasted the test of time. Either the stuff from the early sets were vastly underpowered and therefor a non issue for players wishing to join the format, typically games that learned from Magics mis-steps, or they are in the same situation where the barrier to entry is much higher.

Elite players tend not to like to think of themselves as breathing rarefied air, same as how millionaires like to think they are "of the people", but the very fact that you are posting on this forum does in fact carry with it some level of elitism because you play a format of magic with a super high barrier to entry and a staunched, somewhat clique based community.

I'll equate this tread to a current political discussion. You are looking to make the format more accessible to people who do not currently play it, but instead of offering up the answer that could actually get us there, which would be removing the reserve list (the actual source of the issue) and reprinting vintage staples, you are trying to find a work around because you know that the actual solution will not happen because the people who call the shots wont move on it. It is a similar argument to the war on drugs right now. Instead of solving the problem of illegal drug which leads to crime, health issues, etc with the use of programs that are known to work, like early intervention, health care, legalization and regulation, your just doling out narcan to people to prevent people from dying and saying that since they are no longer dying job is done.

Making the format a proxy only format is not seeing the forest for the trees.

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

The format for Magic is a concession to the fact that they did not know what they were doing with card designs at the onset of the game. Banned and restricted lists were pieced together to give the format some structure to make it possible, but it is still a format of overpowered cards from the dawn of the game that will not be reprinted, in part created to placate card speculators so that there reserve list cards held value. I think I can reasonably say that if the lotus and moxen were not legal in any format they would drop in price as they would be relegated to collectors items.

Look at the eternal formats for any CCG that has lasted the test of time. Either the stuff from the early sets were vastly underpowered and therefor a non issue for players wishing to join the format, typically games that learned from Magics mis-steps, or they are in the same situation where the barrier to entry is much higher.

Elite players tend not to like to think of themselves as breathing rarefied air, same as how millionaires like to think they are "of the people", but the very fact that you are posting on this forum does in fact carry with it some level of elitism because you play a format of magic with a super high barrier to entry and a staunched, somewhat clique based community.

I'll equate this tread to a current political discussion.

usually this is a bad move

yes, removing the reserve list would remove a large barrier to entry into vintage (not all of them), but it wouldn't be a silver bullet for growing the format*. however, we don't have power to remove the reserve list. we do have the power to run proxy events.

*decks would still be expensive unless wotc decided to print virtually unlimited amounts of power and duals and all the other expensive cards.

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