Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?

@brass-man said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

But there's a false dichotomy here which is annoying. There's no reason you can't run an event and say "You can run proxies but they have to be legible." For me, the best proxy is a computer printout, on a plain piece of paper, cut out and put in a sleeve in front of another card. I use these for testing and for lower-key paper events. There's never any confusion, and when effort is taken to print the image out at the right size with the right sized border, bystanders and opponents rarely notice I'm playing with proxies at all.

So this brings up the argument of what is the difference between a really good proxy and a counterfeit. Since we are not selling the proxies we can put the discussion of morality/ethics aside, but once again going back to the OP why would WOTC enable this? Why would we buy cards from them if we could just print them out?

Yes, I agree there needs to be a standard for proxies if you intend to use them, I just don't think you should use them. There is no other format where people are clamoring for this, even though there are some decks in legacy that are now pushing up against the edges of vintage prices and quite frankly, affordability is subjective. Hell, standard is mostly more costly than vintage in the long run because cards are replaced so frequently and tend not to hold value, but no standard players are asking for a break.

Once again, sanctioning and coverage are the only things that are at all different here. WOTC would not sanction a proxy event, nor would they broadcast one where you can see fake cards on screen. If you can deal without those 2 things then you already have all the ability to run proxy events with whatever criteria you would like to have them in.

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

@brass-man said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

But there's a false dichotomy here which is annoying. There's no reason you can't run an event and say "You can run proxies but they have to be legible." For me, the best proxy is a computer printout, on a plain piece of paper, cut out and put in a sleeve in front of another card. I use these for testing and for lower-key paper events. There's never any confusion, and when effort is taken to print the image out at the right size with the right sized border, bystanders and opponents rarely notice I'm playing with proxies at all.

So this brings up the argument of what is the difference between a really good proxy and a counterfeit. Since we are not selling the proxies we can put the discussion of morality/ethics aside, but once again going back to the OP why would WOTC enable this? Why would we buy cards from them if we could just print them out?

Yes, I agree there needs to be a standard for proxies if you intend to use them, I just don't think you should use them. There is no other format where people are clamoring for this, even though there are some decks in legacy that are now pushing up against the edges of vintage prices and quite frankly, affordability is subjective. Hell, standard is mostly more costly than vintage in the long run because cards are replaced so frequently and tend not to hold value, but no standard players are asking for a break.

Once again, sanctioning and coverage are the only things that are at all different here. WOTC would not sanction a proxy event, nor would they broadcast one where you can see fake cards on screen. If you can deal without those 2 things then you already have all the ability to run proxy events with whatever criteria you would like to have them in.

One concrete example of WotCs take were the printed proxies from I think Cool Stuff Inc? They were actual commissioned art and the cards read "Ruby" etc. they clearly weren't real magic cards and didn't even say "Add Red Stuff" and they still got cease and desisted.

I can't find pictures at the moment.

I lied, Gaming Etc. did them

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last edited by nedleeds

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

So this brings up the argument of what is the difference between a really good proxy and a counterfeit.

To be clear, I'm talking about the image printed on a regular piece of printer paper, no cardstock, no glue. In a sleeve, at a glance you don't notice, but there's no way you could possibly convince someone it was a real card when outside of a sleeve. It's in no way more of a counterfeit more than a basic land+sharpie proxy. To me that's the line - could you convince a buyer that the card was real? If so it's a counterfeit. I admit that counterfeit v playtest card quickly gets murky and semantic, but the line is clear for me in terms of what I'm willing to own/play with.

once again going back to the OP why would WOTC enable this? Why would we buy cards from them if we could just print them out?

Well they wouldn't enable it, of course. They never have. They're not exactly enabling non-proxy events, either. Vintage has always been a community-run format, first and foremost.

This is a very old discussion. It won't be resolved in this thread. Some players just don't like proxies no matter what, and some players (like myself) love them. Some of these opinions are there for intractable reasons, and I'm not trying to make anyone budge ... but I do think that there are some people out there who are worried about very solvable problems.

There are some people that genuinely don't get that you can play vintage for free. Those people can be taught.
There are some people that genuinely just dislike proxies for legibility. You can make better proxies.
I think some people are turned off by the concept of proxies, because they think they're for "scrubs" or "poors", and I think those people can be won over pretty easily.

But some people just aren't ever going to like them and that's fine.

@moorebrother1

As a practical step I think the best thing you can do is just make several high quality proxy decks and ask people to play with you. Tell them you're testing for a big event, or trying out a new deck, or that you haven't played vintage in a while and you're trying to get your fix. Give them a deck you think they'd like playing based on what you know about them, and if they enjoy themselves, ask them if they'd like to keep the deck. Playtesting is fun. Use playtest cards to do it. If you can leverage that into a proxy event, awesome. If not, you're still playing Vintage. Honestly I enjoy a great night testing with friends more than Vintage Champs any day.

@brass-man I really like your perspective on this, because it is my perspective on this as well. The fact that the NYSE is allowing proxies is a big part of why I started this thread.

SCG Con attendance was a bit lower this year and paper events have had some issues with attendance for a while.

At the same time Old School events are thriving and they do not even allow proxies.

I thought Vintage could follow the Old School model and do events similar to how they have low EV events but dedicated players. I was wrong. We cannot do low EV events but that may change. If paper Vintage is going to survive a few things will need to change and I think at this point we know what they are. I just hope that something does change.

I know it's natural for you guys, but you all have a very US/Euro-centric view of the format and proxies. Maybe in some places like Australia or Japan things are like that too, I have no idea. So maybe you think a format where players take control is OK or that proxies will solve stuff. But let me tell you how it works on the rest of the world.

No. One. Owns. Shit. A Volcanic Island is the same price as 1 month worth of rent, so Legacy is already broken. I play every thursday in a store that has to allow 15 proxies in Legacy or we don't have 8 people - not only because people don't have the cards, but because it's hard to walk around with a 2k deck when you could be robbed. We have monthly sanctioned Legacy, but a lot of people have to borrow cards and we've been discovering some fakes recently: so I have no idea if those 30+ players we get are actually OK.

Also, most people prefer to play Commander and spend their money there because sanctioned Vintage will never exist. Competitive players migrate to Legacy/Modern and casual player to Commander. The biggest problem is that Legacy and Commander are very good substitutes to everything Vintage has to offer, and they're cheaper to get into.

Turning to proxies is not something most people tend to accept because they know they'll never own those cards and that's a dealbreaker. In Legacy people use proxies because they're testing stuff and WILL get those cards later, one day. Vintage is impossible.

The world (not US, not Europe) only got Magic when 4th edition was released, so every single copy of anything before that was imported later somehow. So Vintage is non-existent and no one actually cares because it's impossible to gather even 3 people to play it. I'm talking about Brazil, the biggest and most developed country in South America, but that could be about Mexico or the whole Latin America too.

I know there are a bunch of people around (maybe here on TMD too) that think of us as underdeveloped apes that deserve nothing more than garbage and I'll tend to ignore idiots like those.

@fsecco said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

Turning to proxies is not something most people tend to accept because they know they'll never own those cards and that's a dealbreaker. In Legacy people use proxies because they're testing stuff and WILL get those cards later, one day. Vintage is impossible.

So, when i started playing vintage i definitely wouldn't have started without proxies, but I also assumed i would never own the cards. Turned out I was wrong, i eventually got some power, and then i sold it for life reasons, but still get to play because of proxies.

I am surprised that the "I might really own this" is the divider between wanting to use proxies or not, since that wasn't my experience. Can you get a little more into that mindset?

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

So this brings up the argument of what is the difference between a really good proxy and a counterfeit. Since we are not selling the proxies we can put the discussion of morality/ethics aside,

No we can't. You can make proxies that are WOTC printed quality. But they'd better have some significant difference from the real thing - alternate art for example. Any card that could realistically deceive another person into believing its a real copy is, imho, a counterfeit, and should not be tolerated. There is no reason for it.

@fsecco / @garbageaggro yeah I'm confused. I feel like you made a 3 paragraph argument in favor of proxies (people can't afford the cards, people don't want to bring expensive cards with them, etc), and then concluded with "and therefore, proxies are bad." I'm not trying to win you over, but I really don't get it.

All of the things you said about magic pricing being different in different parts of the world (or country) are exactly the things I tell people when I'm trying to convince them how great proxies are.

Last year I spent a month hanging out with magic players in Mexico City (whatup Fernando!), I was AMAZED that people were willing to spend half a day's salary on a single draft, when they could be playing Vintage for free. There are clearly cultural forces at work that make people really reluctant to play with proxies (and I mean the culture of the magic community, not any particular country)

The mindset that you have to own the cards someday is where I'm lost ... why? Why not just proxy a vintage deck and then ... not buy the cards? It's the same game. I'd argue it's a BETTER game, because you're not constantly looking over your shoulder and terrified to put a beer next to your deck. If you're interested in Vintage and you don't live down the street from a place that runs sanctioned events, what does owning the cards get you? You get to subsidize SCG in exchange for a less-fun version of the game?

There are a lot of reasons people are for or against proxies, but "we don't have enough money for proxies" is hard for me to wrap my head around, if the alternative is playing Modern or Commander which is dramatically more expensive. I can't help but think there HAS to be some other unsaid reason here.

I was personally fortunate enough to buy power when it was much cheaper, but I play with proxies whenever I can - I only ever playtest with full-proxy decks, I proxy my power and leave it home when I go to a local event ... it's just a better experience for me, and it's a place I find EW to be consistently disappointing. I know Vintage isn't for everyone, but I hate to imagine people missing out on the format because of some mistaken idea that proxies offer an inherently worse experience.

Quick life story here. One day I just decided I wanted to play vintage. I had a good job and a deep legacy collection so I thought I would make the effort and try to get back some of the cards I had when I was a kid. I started looking at lists and found Dark times, which was basically mono black with a jet and that was about it. You could play lotus but some lists did not. So I traded some stuff, store credit for some more, and bought a Mox Jet.

From that point on I started building out my collection. Eventually that dark times deck moved me into wanting to try Dredge, and I got 4 bazaars (when they were about $250 each) once again by trading standard, modern, and legacy stuff I was not going to use into store credit and trades. I played that list for a long time, and then finally I decided I would collect power. My Bazaars went towards some moxen, I got a good trade at Gencon for a timewalk from a vendor, and finally I managed to trade in something like $1500 to cardkingdom for a reasonable condition lotus.

I was basically able to collect my vintage staples without directly spending a dime, by carefully saving my cards that I was getting via limited, speculating on stuff that would go up and trading into it, and spending the time. For what it's worth most of my vintage collection today was only available to me because I bought 100 copies of Deathrite shaman at 2 dollars store credit each which then sold at 18, and 200 copies of collective brutality at less than a dollar store credit which I think went for damn near 25. I was smart and lucky, but I don't think you have to be to have a similar story to me.

Point is, the quest to actually get these cards was part of the game to me, and quite frankly I think of it as being more fun and challenging than a lot of the rounds of magic I have played in my life. If scarcity was not part of the inherent design of the game, cards would not have rarity, and if owning the cards was not important people would not buy and sell them at the rates they do. During the period of time where I was collecting my power I never once said to myself, I wish I could proxy some crap I don't own at a tourney. I just played a different list or played a different format.

I am basically making the argument here that I view ownership of the game pieces as a critical part of the game itself, or at least the meta game around the game, and I do not think you can separate the two. I would go as far as saying that owning the cards will make you not only have more respect for them, but opponents and spectators alike will have more respect for you, and I think that is important to the life of the format itself.

@garbageaggro when did you start? Because a lot changed after 2007 when Legacy got created. We now have a bunch of formats we didn't have back then, so it was way easier to convince people to play proxies. The thing now is that they can play a "real format", with official support, big events and actual opponents with real cards (be it Legacy or Commander) or they can play their crazy friend with proxies in a format that, even in high profile play, is kinda casual. Vintage has no chance, really.

last edited by fsecco

@brass-man said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

The mindset that you have to own the cards someday is where I'm lost ... why? Why not just proxy a vintage deck and then ... not buy the cards?

You got me there. I don't get that either, but it's the reality. Someone even mentioned this here (OP? Don't remember). The thing it that all of magic (Spike, Timmy, Jimmy, etc) are covered by other formats that are officially supported. This matters a lot. Why would anyone play Vintage competitively when it doesn't exist and Legacy does?
Why would anyone play it kitchen table style when Commander exists and can be way cheaper.
Sure, if people changed that mindset we'd get a bunch of vintage players, but they simply won't start playing. Also, it's a BIG problem finding calendar space to schedule events with all that's going on.
Creating a gauntlet of decks and lending it to people is the only way I got people to play and enjoy the format. What happened after that glorious event everyone played with my decks and loved the format? They never played it again because they spend their time building decks for formats they actually play.
So yeah, we should definitely play proxy. But it won't happen on a large scale and I also believe not having sanctioned big events like EW would be the nail in the coffin in the format.

Personally, I wouldn't have started without proxies. I dipped into Vintage with Cockatrice from time to time without actually knowing the format, and when I heard that the local league used proxies I gave it a try, and now it's my favorite format.
I started because of proxies and stayed for the format. How would anyone even get into Vintage without proxies?
I'm a poor student and can't even afford duals right now, but I'm fortunate enough to live in a country where it's relatively easy to eventually buy into power. And I will. Because it has something special to it.

Owning power is and should be something to look up to. Be it because you spent a good chunck of your salary or because you're in possession of these cards since 1993.
Playing Magic (read Vintage) should be available for everyone. Just like everyone could proxy up a standard deck and have fun with their friends.
Sanctioned events are another story though. That NBA analogy was on point. Nobody forces you to play sanctioned events.

Until I get my Beta Power, I'll jam my altered Zendikar Basics as Power. After all proxies should look beautiful.

@protoaddict I absolutely do not want to downplay your story, because personal history is a big part of vintage for a lot of people. I think you're right that it's hard or impossible for some people to split the idea of collecting from the idea of Magic, it is after all a "Collectible" Card Game. I completely understand why many people enjoy the owning and collecting part of the hobby, and I myself have a personal attachment to a lot of the cards I've had for decades.

But I'm really bothered by the idea that someone who owns more expensive cards is somehow more invested in the format, or more worthy of respect. I can assure you, while some opponents and spectators might respect someone more for owning expensive cards, I absolutely do not.

The cheapest Lotus on CardKingdom right now is $10,000, compared to the $1500 you had to pay. Salaries haven't really raised accordingly. That means in order for someone to get the same respect you have for earning cards, they need to be 6 times richer or 6 times luckier than you were.

When I bought my Lotus from SCG, it cost $419. That's about the price of a played Volcanic Island today. If someone today buys a Volcanic Island, in what way are they less worthy than me with my Black Lotus?

Cards today are dramatically higher in part BECAUSE of people like us who got in cheaply and never cashed out. Our bargain-hunting and passion for the format helped drive the lower supply and higher demand that's made a Vintage deck prohibitively expensive to own. My income is somewhere within top 5% for Americans and there's no way I would buy power today if I didn't already own it. Frankly the decision to buy power is pretty irresponsible for most people. This is to say nothing of people who live in other countries trying to buy cards internationally with USD.

I can think of several people who don't one power, some of whom will never be able to afford power, who have made big contributions to the vintage hobby/community, by writing articles, community organizing, developing decks.

When you're friendly and welcoming, when you play to the best of your ability, when you drive the format forward, when you make an effort to improve the experience of the people around you... these are things that make me respect a player.

When I see Alpha power? "Meh, must be nice."

@protoaddict Look man, I have a similar story. Until recently, I owned basically everything there is to own in Vintage and Old School. I had complete sets of Arabian, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark and Fallen Empires, Unlimited and CE Power, 4 Shops, 4 Bazaar, 40 duals, etc and could build basically any Vintage and Old School deck. That came to me with a lot of good trades I made during the 20+ years I play this game and a bit of money from work too. What does that mean to the health of the format? Nothing at all. It was just me in a sea of goodies and no one else.
You know why? Because anyone here can trade their huge Commander collection for Power, but WHY on Earth would they do it? I always told people that I had Power because I chose to, instead of having Legacy or Modern collections, for example. And that's partly true. But why should anyone give up their Legacy/Modern/Commander collections for Vintage? Why would anyone get out of healthy formats, with weekly tournaments and GPs and big kitchen tables or whatever to play... with no one at all?

I'm giving up my Old School collection because of that. Why should I keep all this beautiful expensive treasure to play with no one instead of building 1 Legacy, 1 Modern and 1-2 Commander decks (at a bare minimum) and actually play the game?

That's why I said this is an elitist view that comes from countries that actually have uses for Power and whatever. In the rest of the world buying power makes absolutely no sense unless from a collector point of view.

@brass-man said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

When I see Alpha power? "Meh, must be nice."

It is, I enjoy playing with them. That being said, I was very lucky to be gifted the set many years ago.

As a vintage player from Australia, I can say that there are very few sets of power in the country. When last I counted (about 4 years ago), there were between 60-80 sets in the entire country. Australia is a large country with a tiny population. The largest sanctioned vintage events top out at 40 players; most big events fluctuate between 16 and 24 players. Proxy-friendly events almost never go beyond 12 players. The sad truth is that there is a lack of interest in the format.

Before moving to the US, I coordinated vintage in Sydney. Since moving, events stopped being scheduled, and the community disappeared. Proxy events can help smooth the transition curve to vintage - in my experience in Australia, this was unfortunately not the case.

@rbartlet said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

As a vintage player from Australia, I can say that there are very few sets of power in the country. When last I counted (about 4 years ago), there were between 60-80 sets in the entire country.

Hahahahhhahahahhaah sorry but this shows pretty much what I'm talking about. Last I counted, in Brazil we have like 6-7 sets of Power. 8 if you count my 2. English speaking countries are probably on the high end of this.

@fsecco That makes plenty of sense why not to buy power, but not why not to encourage proxy vintage.

If the goal was to increase access to vintage and attendance, why not allow the latest batch of counterfeit cards, appropriately marked, to be used as in local non-sanctioned tournament play? I guess we can either keep our memberships to the exclusive vintage country club or open the course to the masses. Any vintage deck would be available for less than $200 USD, which last time I checked was about the same amount of money as my putter. Proxies can make the board annoyingly confusing- is that a mox jet or mox ruby? is that an underground sea or a volcanic- oh wait, it was a fetchland? I see a easy way to open the format, the cards are distinguishable, and actually makes play easier. Solves the proxy issues Brassman pointed out- legibility and damage, as well as the video coverage, and COST all in one fell swoop.

My philosophy towards proxies is: cui bono?

I am totally sympathetic with @Brass-Man's concerns about playtest card quality and can get behind rules restricting the quality of such cards. But I have not heard any arguments for why disallowing well-made proxies benefits either existing or potentially new Vintage players that I find personally compelling. A few points:

  1. It's great that the hunt for power has driven some players to become invested in our community. But I don't see the existence of one path to joining the Vintage community as necessitating closing off all other paths.

  2. "WotC will kill Vintage if it becomes a proxy format": this argument is odd to me for several reasons. First, (paper) Vintage is already de facto a proxy format, in that the vast majority of paper tournaments allow playtest cards in some form, and this fact has been acknowledged by WotC in their official communications. Second, WotC support for the format is infinitesimal. Other than a single tournament per year, (paper) Vintage is a community-run format.

  3. We shouldn't reward counterfeiters or encourage players to give them business. This is a reason to allow playtest cards at Vintage tournaments, since counterfeits are already de facto allowed (are you really going to whip out a loupe and take your opponent's power out of its sleeve in the middle of a tournament, to police authenticity?)

  4. Some people are concerned that allowing more playtest cards in tournaments would decrease the value of their investments in Vintage cards. While there is an undeniable link between card playability and value, all of the evidence I've seen points to very old cards holding value due mostly to (a) their collectibility and (b) their usefulness in other formats like Legacy and EDH, and only slightly due to their value as a Vintage game piece. Consider (1) the value of alpha and beta cards have skyrocketed, despite a stagnation in the number of (paper) Vintage players, and Vintage become de facto a proxy format; and (2) the high price of iconic cards like Shivan Dragon that see no Vintage play.

last edited by evouga
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