Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?

What if instead of counterfeit, I said "high quality proxies"? It seems to solve a lot of the issues mentioned. I understand reluctance, but there are not enough vintage players out there to start with to really make it an issue where we are 'encouraging' the counterfeit operations. They already exist, and the focus is not about vintage.

@megantic said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

What if instead of counterfeit, I said "high quality proxies"? It seems to solve a lot of the issues mentioned. I understand reluctance, but there are not enough vintage players out there to start with to really make it an issue where we are 'encouraging' the counterfeit operations. They already exist, and the focus is not about vintage.

Like I said in another post - if you want high quality, just make sure its EASILY distinguishable from a real card. Having to bust out a jewelers loup, do the light test, etc is not easily distinguishable. Basically, if a cursory look makes somebody think for even a second, "hey, thats a nice looking black lotus", its a counterfeit. Distinguish it somehow. Make it an alternate art, full art, put it thru a foiling process etc. There are any number of things you can do to make a high quality proxy that leaves no doubt to even the most casual player that its not real.

Just chiming in to point out that allowing 10-15 proxies in events is helpful not only to players who don't own power, but to those who prefer to travel without a $30,000 mark. I know several players with vast collections who prefer to travel to events without taking an enormous risk. Additionally, allowing proxies incentivizes grading (which renders cards physically unplayable), which is an aspect many seem to appreciate & enjoy.

I'm all for it, simply because I prefer to play with proxies than to not play.

We had plenty of tournaments 10 years ago, and even a provincial Vintage championship with invitations during the golden age of Vintage.

Then the prices started to rise, most older players in my community decided to cash out and get a down payment on a house instead.

Very few younger players were able to afford competitive decks, even in a 10 proxy event. It ended up being the players who kept their cards crushing the younger players, who just never came back, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't play a format where I get blown out just because I don't have money to be competitive.

Within 2 years, all the tournaments stopped and now I can't play competitive Vintage at all, even if I still have all my card.

@wagner I really appreciate this story because it is my story. My friends that have not cashed out mostly play Old School now and while I do love Old School, I love Vintage more. I really just want more paper events. Events where we get at least 20 people.

last edited by moorebrother1

@khahan said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

@megantic said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

What if instead of counterfeit, I said "high quality proxies"? It seems to solve a lot of the issues mentioned. I understand reluctance, but there are not enough vintage players out there to start with to really make it an issue where we are 'encouraging' the counterfeit operations. They already exist, and the focus is not about vintage.

Like I said in another post - if you want high quality, just make sure its EASILY distinguishable from a real card. Having to bust out a jewelers loup, do the light test, etc is not easily distinguishable. Basically, if a cursory look makes somebody think for even a second, "hey, thats a nice looking black lotus", its a counterfeit. Distinguish it somehow. Make it an alternate art, full art, put it thru a foiling process etc. There are any number of things you can do to make a high quality proxy that leaves no doubt to even the most casual player that its not real.

I would write "Proxy" on the card. Issue solved.

@megantic said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

I would write "Proxy" on the card. Issue solved.

Aren't proxies like really bad at LGS though? There is also a well know piece of power that has "fake" written on it, -It's real.

last edited by John Cox

@john-cox said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

@megantic said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

I would write "Proxy" on the card. Issue solved.

Aren't proxies like really bad at LGS though? There is also a well know piece of power that has "fake" written on it, -It's real.

I have no idea why that is important to this. I am advocating for proxies, and more liberal use of good quality counterfeits since they already exist and are being used in tournaments.

If a store is found to have proxies on their premise the can loose their ability to sell WoTC products. So cards with "proxy" on them is bad. "Playtest Cards" would work, the issue is that there is no way of guaranteeing that it is a playtest card and not a real card with words written on it.
You could show up to a 15 proxy event and with 20 cards with "playtest card" written on them and say that 5 of them are real and just have "playtest card" written on them.

@john-cox said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

If a store is found to have proxies on their premise the can loose their ability to sell WoTC products. So cards with "proxy" on them is bad. "Playtest Cards" would work, the issue is that there is no way of guaranteeing that it is a playtest card and not a real card with words written on it.
You could show up to a 15 proxy event and with 20 cards with "playtest card" written on them and say that 5 of them are real and just have "playtest card" written on them.

I don’t care if they have 20 proxies or 60 proxies as long as I can read and understand them from my side of the table. That is not always the case, and some are god awful. Hence why I advocate for counterfeits allowed as proxies to make it easier to distinguish and read them. Some people will hate that, and I understand why. I respect the store policy and follow it. If I’m lucky, I get to play once a quarter if ELD is hosting a tourney and I don’t have family responsibilities. It’s always fun and I get to reconnect with a few vintage players I’ve known for a long time. The more participants the merrier. There are decks I’m priced out of I’d like to play, but until the policy changes I will play what is legal under the stores policy. I recognize this opinion may be in the minority, and counterfeit cards are distasteful and wrong, but the pricing of cards has made this hobby unreachable for too many.

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