Frogmite is interesting, I bet Myr Enforcer is too expensive. Maybe the right number of Memnite+Frogmite is more than 4... I hadn't realized that was a possibility.

Defense Grid is for sure the better anti-counterspell card, and it provides some coverage for Cranial Plating vs instant speed removal. I don't know if that requires its own sideboard slot though? My thinking is that Spheres might be a necessary disruptive card to slow an opponent down, rather than something to defend your own cards (which are already fairly counterspell-resistant)

I just noticed your list does not have black lotus? Typo?

Any consideration for Vault key in this? Key had other applications in the deck like mana generation.

ALso, LED?

last edited by Protoaddict

Haha, missing Lotus is an oversight, not a typo. It should definitely be in the deck. My turn 1/2 goldfishes were with a Lotus-free test deck. πŸ˜…

There absolutely is a Karn list with Forge and Keys, but I don't know that it makes the list noticeably faster, and it does make it more vulnerable to removal, counters, null rod.

In general, my instinct is to keep combo-specific cards (like LED) out of the deck... But that's just the way I build decks. If someone adds Keys and LEDs and it speeds up the goldfish by a turn, it's probably worth it!

LED does not feel combo to me, since you are playing off the top for the most part. I guess part of my question would be how many cards are you holding in hand on average and saving for later vs how much are you just trying to draw gas to make things go.

This looks great!

I think Reality Hemmorage or Complete Disregard may be possible sideboard cards to remove a Collector Ouphe as they can both be played off the top of the deck while Forge is in play. Might need to rejigger the manabase a little for it though.

@protoaddict

I think it qualifies as a "combo" card here because it does nothing without Forge.

@zias said in Tiny Forgebots:

I think it qualifies as a "combo" card here because it does nothing without Forge.

Cranial plating does nothing without creatures, I would not call that a combo. Just sitting in play is something if you run frogmites.

The "balls out" combo version of this deck sounds like the shining answer to the question "What deck would want all eight Keys?"

@protoaddict said in Tiny Forgebots:

LED does not feel combo to me, since you are playing off the top for the most part. I guess part of my question would be how many cards are you holding in hand on average and saving for later vs how much are you just trying to draw gas to make things go.

There's basically not any reason to hold anything in your hand. You're kind of playing everything you can cast, whether you have a combo draw or an aggro draw, so that part of LED isn't really a problem. My concern with LED is that it's "win more", only working with Forge which is probably already going to win you the game whether or not you have LED.

This is different than Cranial Plating, which can do something with Memnite or your other threats that they can't do on their own. Plating probably turns your 7-turn clock into a 2 or 3-turn clock, but LED turns your Forge from a 1-turn clock into ... a slightly more consistent 1-turn clock. It's a lot less bang-for-your-dead-card. This is all conjecture though, if it turns out that LED or another pure-combo card consistently speeds the deck up a turn, then it's probably worth it.

last edited by Brass Man

I suspect getting metalcraft to be very important to both builds, so even the idea of a led that is nothing more than a trinket seems fine to me.

Speaking of combo, has anyone tried throwing a salvagers in here? If you have both lotus and led it could help enable you to go off at times where you cannot otherwise push through. Infinite ballista gets the job done unless your opponent is behind a leyline and an ensnaring bridge at hellbent.

On what number would you typically play Chalice of the Void? Everything from 0 through 4 seems to hurt your combo in some way.

last edited by boerma

@boerma said in Tiny Forgebots:

On what number would you typically play Chalice of the Void? Everything from 0 through 4 seems to hurt your combo in some way.

Yeah, specially if you play more than 1. That would be so bad, I bet they wouldn't even let you enter a vintage tournament with such deck.

@gutocmtt said in Tiny Forgebots:

@boerma said in Tiny Forgebots:

On what number would you typically play Chalice of the Void? Everything from 0 through 4 seems to hurt your combo in some way.

Yeah, specially if you play more than 1. That would be so bad, I bet they wouldn't even let you enter a vintage tournament with such deck.

He meant if you play it for 0, 1, 2 counters, etc. πŸ™‚

My thinking on Chalice is that you play it at 0 and just run your 0 drops into it. You basically get to cycle your dead-to-Chalice cards and your opponent doesn't. If you assemble the combo you're still lethal with a Chalice-0 in play, and if necessary you can sack it to a Ravager. Playing it at 1 cuts off the combo, but could still be sometimes correct, as you can cycle your 1's and the rest of your deck is just workshop aggro.

Remains to be seen if it's worth the slot in practice, but Chalice 0 on the play is so strong it's hard to pass up.

@protoaddict said in Tiny Forgebots:

Speaking of combo, has anyone tried throwing a salvagers in here?

Surely not in this Workshop build, right? The deck has Petal/Pearl/Lotus/Opal for 4 total white sources (assuming the 2nd Opal gets cut for Lotus). LED would make it 5, but you can't cast Salvagers with LED. You'd need to change a lot of cards before you could ever expect to cast a white spell consistently, even if you didn't mind the fact that you can't play Salvagers off of Forge.

Maybe there's a Salvagers/Forge deck but I'm guessing it wouldn't share a lot of cards with this one.

last edited by Brass Man

@boogdish said in Tiny Forgebots:

I think Reality Hemmorage or Complete Disregard may be possible sideboard cards to remove a Collector Ouphe as they can both be played off the top of the deck while Forge is in play. Might need to rejigger the manabase a little for it though.

This is interesting, I hadn't considered the Devoid spells, but I'm not sure you could run them with the mana as-is. This post reminded me of Spatial Contortion. It should be easier to cast Contortion than Hemmorage or Disregard, but amusingly it's ALMOST as hard to get colorless mana as it is to get a specific color. The list has 8 colorless sources, vs 4 of any specific color. Neither seems that consistent. I think if you really wanted a removal spell, you might have to just run Dismember and accept the fact that you can't play it off of Forge. A handful of extra colorless mana (Wastelands? Grim Monoliths?) could change that though.

@gutocmtt Right, Chalice is obviously a card you play in your combo deck. That’s totally synergistic. Silly me for asking. πŸ™„

last edited by boerma

@brass-man said in Tiny Forgebots:

Surely not in this Workshop build, right? The deck has Petal/Pearl/Lotus/Opal for 4 total white sources (assuming the 2nd Opal gets cut for Lotus). LED would make it 5, but you can't cast Salvagers with LED. You'd need to change a lot of cards before you could ever expect to cast a white spell consistently, even if you didn't mind the fact that you can't play Salvagers off of Forge.
Maybe there's a Salvagers/Forge deck but I'm guessing it wouldn't share a lot of cards with this one.

I don't think it is that outlandish. 5-6 white sources plus a singleton copy of salvagers. You can play them off LED if they are on the top of your deck. Just float 3 white then top them to your hand. Since the decks combo right now is the ability to draw your deck just a single salvagers lets you pretty consistently go infinite for as large a ballista as you need.

I mean, there are any number of ways to win once you draw your deck but as it stands your list does not have any way of beating a resolved infinite life combo, be it Zuran Orb/Fastbond/Crucible or some sort of Soul sisters or whatever. Salvagers would allow you to. That being said, could be a sideboard option as opposed to main deck.

As for Chalice, your deck has no 3s or 5s which is where the free counters live, so that could be the play. I think it might be a better sideboard card in this list than the main though, since what you are doing is not Shops in a traditional sense.

I think it would be better if they just decided not to print this card. There is no point of going into the technical discussion of balance or qualitative values for the format because they are obviously moving away from these things.

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