@jclnc007 Gilded lotus was a big include in the original 7/10 split deck (I believe it was even a 3x of). The ramp of welding in a gilded lotus, then welding in another after tapping the first gave such a huge mana boost that you often had 8+ mana on turn 3. Now we even have cards like faithless looting, whereas before it cost 3 mana with frantic search or intuition. You could conceivably have a turn 2 8+ mana now.
@thewhitedragon69 do you know any cards from 7/10?
thecravenone last edited by
Brass Man last edited by Brass Man
@jclnc007 If you know your friends like [[Powder Keg]], that's a good reason not to play [[Phyrexian Dreadnaught]]. But if you're not running Dreadnaught, why run [[Illusionary Mask]]? As far as I can tell it does absolutely nothing in the deck. What are you trying to do with the card, maybe it doesn't work the way you're thinking?
I think that is a list of Vintage legal cards.
You are mistaken. It's 53 cards and is not a legal list. 52 if the Ancient Tomb was listed twice by accident rather than there being 2 Ancient Tombs in the deck.
I'm responding as if this isn't a troll post, but it's stretching my willing suspension of disbelief If this is a serious post, I suspect your playgroup is playing a very casual form of vintage, and might even have more fun with a format geared for non-tournament play like Commander?
If your heart is set on Welding in [[Sundering Titans]], then you're going to need a 60 card deck, and you're going to need a lot more lands. If you want to dodge your Titan hitting your own cards, you can use non-Island mana like the original 7/10 deck did. [[Mana Confluence]], [[Shivan Reef]] are nice, the new [[Fiery Islet]] seems great in this. An easy start is to throw in 7 of these cards to bring your deck up to 60. That alone makes your deck legal and a lot better, but you're probably going to want closer to 20 total mana sources? (including the artifact mana).
The [[Illusionary Mask]]s and [[Candelabra of Tawnos]] don't really do anything for you, and almost certainly need to go.
Now after all of that, you're still not in great shape to win a vintage tournament, but that's fine. Any less than those changes and you'll end up with a lot of games where you can't play a single spell, which won't be fun for anyone. Start with having enough mana to play your cards, cut the cards that don't do anything, and play a few games. Maybe build the deck together with your friends? Come up with questions to ask from the games you play.
It's hard for us to figure out what sort of environment you're playing in when your list isn't vintage legal and has no lands that produce the color of mana that your spells are.
Question what’s not legal? Also illusionary mask says some mana. meaning I can still pay one for titan. I appreciate all the feedback. My apologies that the card list is 53 cards. I can re type it for every one. Also I have a new account. I, placing 3ed at themandrain waterburry ct with mono black, fyi . I am right building the deck for fun adding the 1 time vault and 4 voltaic keys.
The not legal part is that the list has fewer than 60 cards. As far as paying one for titan, I don't think that's how illusionary mask works.
Brass Man last edited by
So there is some confusion here. [[Illusionary Mask]] can't be used to cheat cost on the creature. Current wording states:
"You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of"
e.g. you have to pay the mana cost or more. You even need to get the colors right, so you couldn't use a Mask to play a Goblin Welder with your Ancient Tomb, for instance. In this deck, Illusionary Mask does nothing. I don't believe Mask has ever worked that way, but I could be mistaken. I certainly don't recall any vintage deck that used it that way since 2002. If it really let people play any creature for free, it would probably be better to throw Emrakul and Blightsteel Colossus under it.
@ian-mars is correct that I only meant the deck size was illegal, if you just forgot to write some lands down than you're probably fine. It's possible to edit the original post without re-typing everything if you want to update it.
If I'm not mistaken, you could pay X where X was the CMC or more to put a creature into play face down (originally). I don't think you needed the actual color of mana to do it - but I always played it with dreadnought, which is colorless anyway. In either case, you most certainly can't pay LESS than the CMC of a creature to put it into play. That would have been more broken than any other card in magic if you could have played any creature for 1 mana and probably restricted before moxen.
I was reading about some and I can drop a few titans. To me and I am going to ask a few friends, some mana means some of 8 some I think, is = x so some has To be at lest one right? Some and creature is why mask is worth 1000+ dollars. At any rate I made the deck in in three days and still haven’t played it against any other deck. Have you ever tried volrath’s shapeshifter with phyrexian dreadnought? Ty everyone that contributed to this.
@jclnc007 So, I'm definitely sure you have to pay AT LEAST the CMC of the creature - but you can pay MORE to conceal the true cost (thus the flavor of the mask). It's expensive because it's a reserved list card and was never reprinted as in Revised edition. There's never been a time (pre or post errata) where you could play less than the CMC to get a creature into play. You could dodge the additional costs like sacrificing creatures, thus why dreadnought was a great combo. It also used to be an ability so you could dodge counterspells. After the errata, you are still casting the creature, so it can be countered (making mask virtually worthless outside of the dreadnought combo).
There was once a deck called Full English Breakfast that ran survival of the fittest, volrath's shapeshifter, masks, dreadnoughts, birds of paradise, and phage the untouchable. The trick was to either get a dreadnought into play via mask or shapeshifter copy OR survival a bird into your grave with shapeshifter in play, attack with flying for evasion, then survival a phage into the grave before damage so the opponent would die instantly.
@thewhitedragon69 I love full English breakfast. I recall when it was made in England. Do you have a deck list for it? Question: how do you get around sacrificing anything with Phyrexian dreadnought?
BlindTherapy last edited by
@jclnc007 you are either masking the dreadnought in or discarding dreadnought to survival of the fittest or shapeshifter when shapeshifter is in play.
I'm pretty sure mask gets around color costs because there was a Mask deck played around Mirage/Visions that used it to cast Lord of Tresserhorn without giving opponent all the bonuses.
BlindTherapy last edited by
@serracollector that has nothing to do with the color costs. mask does not get around color costs; whatever you pay into mask has to be mana that could have cast the creature in question. notably, you're using the mana to activate the ability, not cast the spell, which leads to corner cases like not being able to use cavern of souls colored mana, ancient ziggurat, eldrazi temple making 2, etc to mask a creature in.
craw_advantage last edited by
I think there was a window when it did let you get around color requirements. Check out the outdated text on the image Scryfall shows for the MED version:
No mention of "mana that could be used to pay for it," just CMC. So this seems to be a case like Oubliette, where the card was simplified at one point and then later recomplicated in order to get it closer to the original functionality. Observe the much more complicated current wording:
In any case it never let you pay less than the CMC, as even the Alpha version makes clear:
It's one of those great weird Alpha wordings, but it does say that you still have to spend the mana that the spell actually costs.
Okay the feedback is awesome. I will use dreadnought. How in 2004 did people play get around powder keg?
You should immediately put 4 Karn, the Great Creators into your deck. You'll never lose to your friend's Powder Keg again!
Brass Man last edited by
@craw_advantage Illusionary Mask is a truly insane card. Look at the Alpha wording again and remember that Morphs didn't exist for years. There was no such thing as a "face-down card", and the fact that a "face-down card" is a 2/2 creature with no abilities wasn't a thing. In Alpha, a Mask-face-down creature is just a creature with all of its characteristics, your opponent just doesn't know about them.
If you use Mask to play [[Shivan Dragon]], you can pump its power without revealing it.
If you play a [[Serra Angel]] with Mask, you can attack with it and it won't flip until it deals damage. Your opponent can't block it without a flyer, but they don't know that it has flying.
If you use a Mask to play [[Rock Hydra]] it's going to have a bunch of counters on it. I guess. You could technically pay 10 mana and decide X=0 anyway.
If you play a [[Plague Rat]] with Mask, your other Plague Rats are bigger. It's kind of a tell, but your new rat is still face-down.
If you use a Mask to play a [[White Knight]], and your opponent activates [[Pestilence]], your [[White Knight]] won't flip up and your opponent won't know why. If they play a [[Swords to Plowshares]] on a [[Black Knight]] they committed an illegal action and ... well, I guess that depends on the REL level? Of course, REL levels didn't exist. Maybe you tell your opponent "sorry you can't do that, pick something else."
The card was sheer and utter madness. I don't know how long things worked this way. I'm guessing they changed the rules on this card before Arabian Nights was out, but I'm sure there were a lot of house rules surrounding the card. If anyone was around the competitive scene in the early early days I'd love to hear how it was handled. I've always been fascinated and terrified by the implications of the card before they added "status" to the game rules.
@jclnc007 If you plan to add Dreadnought, then it seems your deck will be kind of a weird hybrid of two old archetypes from back in 2003/2004- MaskNaught, and 7/10 Split.
An example list of 7/10 Split from around that time can be found here.
An example MaskNaught list can be found here.
While neither is particularly relevant in Vintage these days, they're still fun archetypes to play around with. My recommendation would be to pick one strategy to focus on, rather than try to mash two fairly different decks together. I think you'll have more success and more fun that way.
Richard Garfield said some mana but not all mana at Origins.