Those pointing out that Dredge and Forge aren’t winning events are ignoring the dominance of BUGx to the tune of 50% of top 8 appearances recently, and the contribution of overpowered Dredge and Forge decks to that dominance. If you are going to look at statistics, you cannot cherrypick the data points that support your preconceived conclusions (saying this for the 100th time...)

Statistics are meaningless without context and it is sad that they are being used so poorly in this thread. You want to know why there aren’t metagame reports? There you go...

BUGx is doing well because people are trying to run KarnForge obviously. It is essentially a bye for the BUG deck.

Why that calls for a Mystic Forge/Karn restriction is what does not make sense to me. What's "overpowered" in the context of Vintage? It just doesn't exist. Karn doesn't win and therefore it shouldn't be viewed as a problem.

Asia EW has 5 unique decks in the top 8. There's nothing to complain about. I'm going to play regardless of the decision reached by the DCI. I play everyday anyway, but I think it's pretty fun that the meta is at least a little different right now.

Like why is Mystical Tutor-Tinker-Bolas totally fine, but Workshop, Mox, Mystic Forge is some scary thing that people can't handle. Blue can have all these avenues to do whatever they want and as soon as Shops as something reliably decent, it's a huge problem for the internet.

@desolutionist said in SMIP: My Suggested B&R List (2019):

Like why is Mystical Tutor-Tinker-Bolas totally fine, but Workshop, Mox, Mystic Forge is some scary thing that people can't handle. Blue can have all these avenues to do whatever they want and as soon as Shops as something reliably decent, it's a huge problem for the internet.

Because Mystical Tutor and Tinker are restricted and Mishra's Workshop is not.

@desolutionist You are proving the point. BUG, and only BUG, is doing well because it is the deck with decent match ups against Dredge and Shops without warping itself against to be non-competitive against the rest of the metagame. And overpowered means most decks can’t handle them. Where are the other decks that beat forge and Dredge? Unless you think it’s somehow BUG that’s overpowered. It is the context that you have to explain when looking at the format. Don’t pull the “Blue has these restricted cards so Shops should have these unrestricted cards” deflection...

And if you are bringing up Eternal Weekend Japan, you should mention the 3 BUG decks and 3 variants of Karn in the top 8. When even DPS is running 4 Karns, that really undermines Steve’s notion that somehow the card isn’t a problem or that restricting Monolith will fix it. Boy, I can’t wait until Misstep is restricted and Ritual into Karn is even easier...

@chubbyrain

Yeah you're probably right. I can't reasonably play anything other than BUG right now. Except maybe the DPS deck with Karn.

Beside Ritual, he also has Channel->Karn-> Lattice which is pretty cool. I like his list.

@desolutionist I love their list, too and want to jam it on stream, but I also think metagames are too complex to look at one stat in isolation and view that as representative. I think in the absence of Force of Vigor, Trophy, and Ouphe, Forge/Dredge would be much more incontrovertible problems but the absence of other answers for other decks really constrains deck diversity.

Since we are all saying ridiculous things today, lets unrestrict Monastery Mentor so Jeskai with main deck Stony Silence can race Assassins Trophy and Forge.dec. Unrestrict Thorn of Amethyst because blue has access to 8 FoW effects on the Draw. Finally, Restrict Mental Misstep

@horologium

1. Narcomoeba is part of Dredge’s “manabase”. The deck is non functional without free creatures. Free creatures is what they pay for spells with.

2. Yes, blue is broken.

3. Vintage manabases are broken. They break the rules under which every other format operates. Adding inconsistency the most broken manabases is the most we can do with only a restricted list.

@p3temangus

Thorn never should’ve been restricted...

Restrict Tarmogoyf!

Blue only gets 1 Ancestral Recall while red gets to play 4 Lightning Bolts Willy nilly. Restrict Lightning Bolt!

@vaughnbros the manabases don't even have to become inconsistent, they have the option to become painful while still being fetch/dual/basic

I don't care if the Earth burns to cinders but for the love of Yawgmoth I hope Misstep is gone by Champs.

Would Dredge play crop rotation if misstep was restricted?

Probably not. It was legal before but it's been a long time since that's been a desirable option for the deck. The fundamental issue is that green mana source + Crop Rotation is less consistent than Serum Powder and costs a lot of space in the deck that could be used for more impactful things like free counterspells or more reliable speed elements such as Fatestitcher.

My unrealistic solution:
Restrict Karn, then print a 4 mana one sided null rod and a walker that tutors colorless cards from the sideboard.

@john-cox

I don’t think Crop Rotation was ever a legal 4-of before New Phyrexia. Card was pretty broken as a 1-of in shops and Storm before Misstep came around.

It was an obvious inclusion in early versions of Ichorid. I’m sure as a 4-of, brewers could be incentivized to play some green lands in a Bazaar deck.

Could be pretty good AGAINST Dredge as well.

It’s also one of those cards that used to be amazing but aren’t that great now. It would be great in the Depths decks for sure. If Misstep didn’t exist, It could also be awesome in PO style decks.

Iam all about restricting misstep.
This will help so many decks and probably chance the meta to a way more interactive one. I see ritual based decks seeing more play, i see those decks and control as well as midrange decks play duress and thoughtseize, which helps keeping Karn and Narset under control. People will probably start playing Spell pierce, which is also great against the mentioned and without misstep pitch dredge will become way less consistent with its disruption.

@desolutionist or just play Survival with Crop Rotation

@desolutionist
Crop Rotation was unrestricted in June 2009 and New Phyrexia released in May 2011. But there is no deck with more than 1 crop rotation in the mtgtop8.com base during that period.

Obviously the metagame is completely different now, it is difficult to make prediction from this.