August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement

@mike-noble

Wow I didn’t know that! That’s a lot given the cost to play. So if we go on strike does it hurt DCI or just Nick Coss?

last edited by desolutionist

@smmenen said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

But I think what is most alarming is that they emphasize the roll of community feedback. I think it's great that Vintage players can communicate with the DCI, but format management is held by format managers for a reason. Otherwise, we could manage the B&R list with polls and votes instead of having experts do it.
I think majoritarianism is extremely dangerous in format management.

This statement and many of the ones that follow it presume that everyone is going to have an equal voice and opportunity when reaching out to WOTC, and I think that is very much a false assumption. WOTC will certainly weigh a persons opinion based on influence and experience, and some they may just summarily dismiss based on criteria we are not privy to and will never know as the process of decision making will never be a public affair.

These decisions are not a one man, one vote democracy. At the best it is a donor class skewed plurality, and in all likelihood it is still a Monarchy.

@protoaddict

At best we have a benevolent dictator. At times we’ve had a negligent dictator.

In the sports model, we have a commissioner (DCI), owners (TOs), and plenty of players (equivalent roughly to the NBA). The owners and players have had very little input up to this point, and I don’t see why people are complaining about them providing it.

@vaughnbros I'm not sure that analogy holds up. The NBA is a product that is created collaboratively by the commissioner, the owners, and the players. Each have their own interests, and that's why they each have a voice in the process. But Magic is a product made by WotC for consumption by the players. We aren't the people playing in the NBA, we're the people watching it on TV. We have about that level of input; people who happen to have the ear of somebody can give their thoughts and see if they get listened to, but ultimately our feedback is the level at which we continue to engage with the product.

@craw_advantage

The players formed a union and forced them to listen. It wasn’t an altruistic move by the NBA to give the players power.

Yes, we are also fans, but fans have some sway in sports in terms of the bottom dollar. You can be sure many teams (TOs in this example) make decisions to appease fans. So that influences a different relationship between us and TOs directly, but can indirectly affect the decisions of the Commissioner (and should indirectly affect the DCI).

@vaughnbros said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

In the sports model, we have a commissioner (DCI), owners (TOs), and plenty of players (equivalent roughly to the NBA). The owners and players have had very little input up to this point, and I don’t see why people are complaining about them providing it.

Fans tend to vote with their wallet, or with wallet proxies. Vintage players have very narrow wallets as far as money that goes back to WOTC.

@vaughnbros I'm certainly not saying it was altruistic on the league's part (it obviously wasn't). All I'm saying is that NBA players are on the production side of the business, and Magic players are on the consumer side.

@craw_advantage said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@vaughnbros I'm certainly not saying it was altruistic on the league's part (it obviously wasn't). All I'm saying is that NBA players are on the production side of the business, and Magic players are on the consumer side.

That line gets bifurcated too, depending on what formats and players you are talking about. Players in some of the more popular formats are at the least producing content for WOTC, especially now with Arena and streaming being revenue channels for WOTC.

@desolutionist the global aspect of the vintage community is run more like a medieval guild. This guild is fundamentally separated into those with the means of playing the paper format and those who cannot. The guild ardently keeps prices fictitiously high by demanding a reserved list and thus reinforcing the hegemony on the format.

By keeping the format alive they keep their investment gaining value.

This is thoroughly highlighted through the financially motivated naming of bazaar and workshop as being pillars of the financial format rather then the game itself.

last edited by Guest

@nba84
Very interesting perspective!

@nba84 said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

It's going to be a fun few days of brewing until PO decks claim 20% of the meta

I was wrong on both accounts. Should have written "a few hours" and "40%"going by the latest challenge results

last edited by Guest

Are we already complaining about the new meta? Man it has been very boring to follow Vintage players complaining for years about every single shift in the meta. I have no idea how people put up with this.

@fsecco What else are we gonna do? It's not like there are actually any Vintage tournaments to play in. (Not where I live, at least.)

@fsecco yes, MTGO produces regular challenge results that we can analyze and declare the format broken by, thus obviating the need to actually play the game.

@blindtherapy you're joking, right?

Anyway, I've been feeling for a while that the Vintage player crowd has been changing and becoming more wanting of a format that plays similarly to the other formats they know. Which is weird to me because Vintage was always the format that was different from everything else and that's what made it awesome. To me, asking to restrict Workshops is kinda on par with a need to make the format more midrangey - a quest Wizards has been on for about 10 years now in every other format.

@fsecco I'm poking fun at the complaints, yes

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