August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement

@fsecco Yes, although not everyone wants to buy into digital cards.

@dr-j you can rent.

I don't get much of the resistance to buy into mtgo. It's pretty cheap. Vintage decks these days go for 300-400 tix. Unless you think it will be discontinued due to Arena, but that's not bound to happen soon.

How is $300-400 cheap for a computer game?

@boerma said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

How is $300-400 cheap for a computer game?

It's not. But in price per hour of fun, it's still not too bad, especially considering the cost of playing paper (which frequently also means the cost to travel)

I thought this was a thread about the banned and restricted list.

@thecravenone the curse of the mana drain is that every thread is about B+R, except the B+R thread

@fsecco said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@dr-j you can rent.

I don't get much of the resistance to buy into mtgo. It's pretty cheap. Vintage decks these days go for 300-400 tix. Unless you think it will be discontinued due to Arena, but that's not bound to happen soon.

I rent from manatraders and my winnings pay for it. You can cash out for 0.90 a ticket with an instant PayPal deposit. It’s a surprisingly easy process. If you 4-1 like three leagues a month (also an easy process) you can play any deck entirely for free.

@boerma said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

How is $300-400 cheap for a computer game?

Hardly any of the cards are really any expensive...

You have to determine the value of any product to you. I know I’ve logged more hours on MTGO than all the other video games I’ve played combined and feel like the cost (not sure what the net is through prizes and cashing out) has been definitely worth it.

I think MTGO is a good way to play competitive Magic if you have the time but difficulty being able to make it paper events or local testing sessions. Comparing it to other regular video games is like comparing paper Magic to chess or poker-not a great comparison IMO.

@boerma I used to think like that but I do play MTGO on and off. I invest in it what it is worth to me as an on and off player. I play paper with my brother and some friends regularly so I mostly buy paper but when I want to really see the meta and get deeper into the format MTGO is where it is at. So it really depends how you want to spend your money and your time.

last edited by moorebrother1

Paper>>MTGO>>no magic... that's it.

@caron I don’t know. It’s refreshing to not have to worry about a player adding extra COPs to their SBs or otherwise attempting to cheat (not saying it’s common but...). I just have to worry about misclicking away games on a subpar client and the occasional bug.

@chubbyrain

Also playing in my underwear / in bed is the number 1 reason the inequality is wrong.

@chubbyrain That's a huge plus of playing digital Magic imo. Outright cheating may or may not be common but back when I played in paper tournaments you would see a lot of borderline stuff, especially stalling which is really hard to enforce (one instance of stalling/extreme slow play in particular from back in the day still sticks in my craw). Plus there's the legitimate mistakes that people make all the time even when they aren't trying to cheat (myself included). MTGO is definitely a more pure gameplay experience. It's nowhere near as much fun as having my friends over for a Magic night of course, but I'm not so sure I don't prefer it to playing at a paper tournament, or at least one where I'm not already on friendly terms with the crowd there and reasonably sure that everybody is going to be pretty cool.

@boerma you realize you can cash out if you want, right? Also, every multi-player game like Magic (LOL, etc) end up costing more than a normal game.
Also... You really think MTGO is "a computer game"? Because that false analogy sucks. I could ask it right back at you: how's 10k OK for a board game?

last edited by fsecco

I said it before and I'll say it again: Mox Opal and Grim Monolith should be restricted. The kind of power that those cards can generate on turn one is ridiculous and there will always be a dominate glass cannon that can ignore whatever anyone else is doing as long as those cards remain legal 4-ofs.

Today the challenge for me was:
Round 1: PO
Round 2: PO
Round 3: PO
Round 4: White Eldrazi
Round 5: PO
Round 6: Dredge
Round 7: Jeskai
Top 8: 1-Land Belcher

Despite having 3 Collector Ouphes, 4 Force of Vigors, and a bunch of good counterspells, I got completely blown out by Belcher on turn 1 both games. Restrict Mox Opal at the very least and get rid of this PO disturbance.

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

Restrict Mox Opal at the very least and get rid of this PO disturbance.

Can they not just get rid of PO itself? It's just such a miserable play experience to have as the fallback "default" combo option.

@craw_advantage said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

Restrict Mox Opal at the very least and get rid of this PO disturbance.

Can they not just get rid of PO itself? It's just such a miserable play experience to have as the fallback "default" combo option.

Sure, get rid of it all! But if they were to only restrict PO, there would still be Monolith+Opal+Manifold Key to power out whatever 4 mana card they print next.

Clearly that combination of artifact accelerants with the London mulligan is too powerful to remain okay for much longer.

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@craw_advantage said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

Restrict Mox Opal at the very least and get rid of this PO disturbance.

Can they not just get rid of PO itself? It's just such a miserable play experience to have as the fallback "default" combo option.

Sure, get rid of it all! But if they were to only restrict PO, there would still be Monolith+Opal+Manifold Key to power out whatever 4 mana card they print next.

Clearly that combination of artifact accelerants with the London mulligan is too powerful to remain okay for much longer.

Depends on what that four-mana thing is, I guess. If it's Belcher or Helm of Obedience I don't have a problem with that at all. Opal and Monolith do "feel" like restricted cards to me though, for whatever that's worth, but with shops off the table for restriction who knows what the rubric is for fast mana. I don't feel the same urgency to kick those though, whereas Outcome should be erased from the timeline retroactively if possible.

@craw_advantage said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@craw_advantage said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@desolutionist said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

Restrict Mox Opal at the very least and get rid of this PO disturbance.

Can they not just get rid of PO itself? It's just such a miserable play experience to have as the fallback "default" combo option.

Sure, get rid of it all! But if they were to only restrict PO, there would still be Monolith+Opal+Manifold Key to power out whatever 4 mana card they print next.

Clearly that combination of artifact accelerants with the London mulligan is too powerful to remain okay for much longer.

Depends on what that four-mana thing is, I guess. If it's Belcher or Helm of Obedience I don't have a problem with that at all. Opal and Monolith do "feel" like restricted cards to me though, for whatever that's worth, but with shops off the table for restriction who knows what the rubric is for fast mana. I don't feel the same urgency to kick those though, whereas Outcome should be erased from the timeline retroactively if possible.

During the time that people were making a huge stink over Karn, it seemed to me that Monolith/Opal was the underlying issue. Since, if you consider the time that it was spoiled it was never thought to be the center piece of a glass cannon combo deck. A 4 mana planeswalker should be a relatively fair but good midrange haymaker. The problem occurred because it was reliably a turn one play. I believe a turn one Karn should be possible but not likely. Turn one PO should also be possible but not likely.

Based on the only two challenges since the restriction, my hunch that Opal/Monolith should be restricted is kind of being confirmed. I must have played against PO 8/16 matches between the two tournaments; it is taking up quite a large portion of the metagame. I didn't mind it as much because I started playing 3-4 Collector Ouphes, but the reality of this horrible situation set in today when I lost to glass cannon Belcher in top 8. This is essentially the same deck as the dreaded Karn deck, where it's going to generate 6-7 mana and kill you on turn one reliably thanks to an overabundance of powerful artifact accelerants and mulligan rules. So even though I have 4 Collector Ouphes and they don't have any lands, the Belcher player is going to reliably win before I can deploy a counterstrategy. He won the tournament and I fully expect BelcherPO to be the new KarnForge of the meta. In terms of virtually winning the game on turn one, it is the same deck.

Mox, Mox, Monolith, Key, untap Monolith, etc. It's the same...

Remember that KarnForge didn't even have the results to warrant a restriction, but enough people complained because they wanted their games to advance beyond the first turn. That's a reasonable complaint. The DCI listened to the complaints, responded accordingly, and urged us to continue complaining. I just want my games to advance to turn 2/3. That's all I'm after. Any deck playing 4 Monolith and 4 Opal probably is trying to win on turn 1 and those cards make it pretty easy for them.

last edited by desolutionist

Is Belcher that consistent? Belcher has been around for a long time, and it sounds like the mana engine you're describing has been legal for a long time. Have people only just now figured out Grim Monolith?

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