New Graveyard Approaches with Hogaak in Vintage - Post Aug-2019 B/R Announcement

It wouldn’t mill yourself out: it only goes to the next basic. So you could play 2-3 basic and mill 20 cards rather than just 3 with supplier. You would have to wait a turn before you get the cards though.

@desolutionist

Part of me leaves that deck too invested and to be blown out by ravenous trap, but it's definitely something to consider.

Please provide a deck outline for discussion.

If you went the Hermit Druid route, you could Mill yourself out, get Anger in the grave, play a Badlands to trigger 4 Ghasts, maybe make some tokens off Bridge from Below/Cabal Therapies, and get 4 Hasty Hogaaak/Vengevine in play swing for......48 damage on turn 2? Weak to leyline obviously, but a high probability.

@serracollector

Maybe play 1 basic Mountain to get with Hermit?

Also 4x Hermit, 4x Hogaak is nearing Force of Vigor territory. Perhaps Veil of Summer for against Rav Trap. Besides the mentioned graveyard cards you could otherwise play “normal” Jund cards like Ouphe or DRS.

last edited by desolutionist

This sounds great! Can we start coming up with a rough draft?

I’ve tested it quite a bit with Hermit Druid. Actually ending the game can be tricky at times without killing your self, but it felt more viable as a complement to VV than Survival has felt to me. Hermit Druid can realistically end the game on turn 2 and that’s a game changer.

I love everything happening here.

Are Entomb and Reanimate playable now?

I started scouring the internet and found several articles involving Hermit Druid.

I have nothing substantial just yet to conjure a draft, but it might help continue to get the ball rolling.

https://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-rogue-hermit-the-fastest-deck-in-vintage/

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/vintage-101-zombies-hermits-and-eldrazi

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27529_Killing-On-Turn-2.html

I saw a list posted on Facebook that utilizes Creeping Chill in tandem with Hermit Druid.

Think this is also a solid add-on to this tentative list?

I have a list I was goldfishing with. It's in extreme glass cannon phase, but has the general shell to work whatever you all decide to put in it, the combo is very straight forward, activate hermit, tap dudes and win:

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

// 22 Creature
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Bloodghast
1 Anger
4 Narcomoeba
4 Hermit Druid
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor

// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below

// 3 Instant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// 7 Land
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Mountain

// 16 Sorcery
1 Time Walk
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Land Grant

Other Options:
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Balustrade Spy
Pact of Negation
Summoners Pact

With the new mulligan rule its not hard to hit a hermit, a gsz, or a Summoners Pact, so not sure if wheel effects, or even Ancestral is worth it, Time Walk sure for the random 4 mana Hermit, Walk turn. Lots of different defensive measures, such as Grid, Duress/Thoughtseize, Mental Misstep, or Pact, I just went for a base list without those, so choose as you wish. It's fun.

What makes the Hogaak approach better then a certain Dread Return package if we go with Hermid Druid, then it might be better to revert back to the dread return plan. Here are some examples I found.

Targets a player, but hard to disrupt:
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Murderous Redcap
1x The Mimeoplasm

or

Doesn't target a player but can be disrupted:
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls

The support is a minimum of
3x Narcomoeba
2x Bridge from Below
1x Dread Return

With 4x Cabal Therapy to generate tokens and remove the hate from target p[layers hand

This way you have way more room for protection and disruption and card selection.
But then again, this has been tried in the past and was not successful due to the dependency on Hermid Druid and the fact he can't be activated the moment he comes into play.

Just my 2 cents.

Greetz Arjan a.k.a. Zieby

Hogaak into VV is uncounterable and doesn’t actually need Therapy, Dread Return, or Bridge from Below. If you are going full glass cannon this value is lost though.

@mike-noble

Fatestitcher and the Embalm cat are decent for getting Gravecrawlers out. I think Hogaak kind of obsoletes the main purpose of Crawler though (triggering VV).

@vaughnbros
On the contrary, Hogaak is improved tremendously by Gravecrawler.

@wfain

There are much easier ways and synergistic ways to get 2 black or green creatures than going through Gravecrawler. Namely some big ones are Rootwalla and Bridge from Below. Gravecrawler’s limitations was one of the reasons that Hermit-Vine hasn’t really ever been a thing. Paying 2-4 mana post Druid activation is quite a bit. Hogaak can cost you 0, and at most 2 (if you run acorn harvest). That’s a cost reduction of about 2 mana.

last edited by vaughnbros

@wfain
@Mike-Noble

what do you suppose is the critical mass of zombies required to regularly recur vengevine?

are you two envisioning a more incremental graveyard build? or more all-in-one-shot via hermit druid, etc?

@vaughnbros

This sounds like this leads to a split in approaches.

(a) incremental graveyard building w/recursion.

(b) hermit druid explosiveness

are there more?

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