New Graveyard Approaches with Hogaak in Vintage - Post Aug-2019 B/R Announcement

This sounds great! Can we start coming up with a rough draft?

I’ve tested it quite a bit with Hermit Druid. Actually ending the game can be tricky at times without killing your self, but it felt more viable as a complement to VV than Survival has felt to me. Hermit Druid can realistically end the game on turn 2 and that’s a game changer.

I love everything happening here.

Are Entomb and Reanimate playable now?

I started scouring the internet and found several articles involving Hermit Druid.

I have nothing substantial just yet to conjure a draft, but it might help continue to get the ball rolling.

https://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-rogue-hermit-the-fastest-deck-in-vintage/

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/vintage-101-zombies-hermits-and-eldrazi

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27529_Killing-On-Turn-2.html

I saw a list posted on Facebook that utilizes Creeping Chill in tandem with Hermit Druid.

Think this is also a solid add-on to this tentative list?

I have a list I was goldfishing with. It's in extreme glass cannon phase, but has the general shell to work whatever you all decide to put in it, the combo is very straight forward, activate hermit, tap dudes and win:

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

// 22 Creature
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Bloodghast
1 Anger
4 Narcomoeba
4 Hermit Druid
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor

// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below

// 3 Instant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// 7 Land
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Mountain

// 16 Sorcery
1 Time Walk
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Land Grant

Other Options:
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Balustrade Spy
Pact of Negation
Summoners Pact

With the new mulligan rule its not hard to hit a hermit, a gsz, or a Summoners Pact, so not sure if wheel effects, or even Ancestral is worth it, Time Walk sure for the random 4 mana Hermit, Walk turn. Lots of different defensive measures, such as Grid, Duress/Thoughtseize, Mental Misstep, or Pact, I just went for a base list without those, so choose as you wish. It's fun.

What makes the Hogaak approach better then a certain Dread Return package if we go with Hermid Druid, then it might be better to revert back to the dread return plan. Here are some examples I found.

Targets a player, but hard to disrupt:
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Murderous Redcap
1x The Mimeoplasm

or

Doesn't target a player but can be disrupted:
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls

The support is a minimum of
3x Narcomoeba
2x Bridge from Below
1x Dread Return

With 4x Cabal Therapy to generate tokens and remove the hate from target p[layers hand

This way you have way more room for protection and disruption and card selection.
But then again, this has been tried in the past and was not successful due to the dependency on Hermid Druid and the fact he can't be activated the moment he comes into play.

Just my 2 cents.

Greetz Arjan a.k.a. Zieby

Hogaak into VV is uncounterable and doesn’t actually need Therapy, Dread Return, or Bridge from Below. If you are going full glass cannon this value is lost though.

@mike-noble

Fatestitcher and the Embalm cat are decent for getting Gravecrawlers out. I think Hogaak kind of obsoletes the main purpose of Crawler though (triggering VV).

@vaughnbros
On the contrary, Hogaak is improved tremendously by Gravecrawler.

@wfain

There are much easier ways and synergistic ways to get 2 black or green creatures than going through Gravecrawler. Namely some big ones are Rootwalla and Bridge from Below. Gravecrawler’s limitations was one of the reasons that Hermit-Vine hasn’t really ever been a thing. Paying 2-4 mana post Druid activation is quite a bit. Hogaak can cost you 0, and at most 2 (if you run acorn harvest). That’s a cost reduction of about 2 mana.

last edited by vaughnbros

@wfain
@Mike-Noble

what do you suppose is the critical mass of zombies required to regularly recur vengevine?

are you two envisioning a more incremental graveyard build? or more all-in-one-shot via hermit druid, etc?

@vaughnbros

This sounds like this leads to a split in approaches.

(a) incremental graveyard building w/recursion.

(b) hermit druid explosiveness

are there more?

@chikararyuu

I’m just not sure what incremental advantage Crawler is providing? How many times do you have to trigger VV?

I can’t really test ideas or come up with a list because I’m so busy with school but based on my experience in the most recent challenge, don’t you want 4x Collector Ouphe no matter what? PO is nearly half the meta and they struggle against the Ouphe. Shops doesn’t like it either. I’m just saying this because I’m also even considering playing 4 Ouphe in BUG style blue control. It just seems that good right now.

I agree putting too many pieces into the Druid combo basket can leave you open to a lot of blowouts when you don’t draw it / it gets answered. Which is why I don’t view Crawler as a necessity. The deck will already have a number of GY based cards and likely needs to function as an effective hatebear/bazaar deck in addition to the GY shenanigans. It’s possible Crawler is still a decent choice, but feels like a win more with Hogaak in the deck as you already have to have an active yard + mana + a zombie in play for Crawler to function.

  • 32
    Posts
  • 1878
    Views