Seems really fun with Voltaic Key.

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

How does this work with Welder? Can you weld it out for your own artifact? Voltaic Key?

Yeah all that stuff works. The opponent gets it as part of the resolution, so you can hold priority and do anything you want while you still control it. You can activate it, untap it with a key, activate it a second time, untap it with a second key, activate it a third time, and then weld it or bounce it, as long as you have all that stuff already. There are tons of shenanigans available with this.

Is it strictly better than Expedition Map in Belcher? The Black makes it slightly difficult maybe?

It’s tutorable with Karn and playable off a Mystic Forge.

last edited by desolutionist

I think it's easiest application is in PO. You draw then search and have this in hand. If you hit a 2nd PO with the draw, great, tutor resolves and you get your academy, mana vault, whatever and win the game. If you dont, get your 2nd PO and still probably win the game. Finding a deterministic win is obvious when the situation calls for it.

Wait. How does this work with Voltaic Key? If I tap to search, untap and tap to search again, at the end of it do I simply get it back?

@fsecco you don't get it back; the activation gives it to an opponent of who activated it, not who controls it when the activation resolves. you can still use it profitably by tap to search, respond by untapping, search again. obviously with 2 keys you can tutor 3 times and hand over a useless artifact to them.

@fsecco I don't think so. "Opponent" is defined by opposition to the controller of the capacity on the stack, not the controller of permanent.

Isn't it close to something like Death Wish/ Grim tutor in storm? 3 mana to get a card

last edited by covetousrat

@covetousrat kinda. There are a bunch of really important differences.
You don't lose life (making Bargain, Ad Nauseam, Citadel better); it costs 2B instead of 1BB; you can divide that cost in two turns; it's tinkerable; and it's reusable if you have Chain of Vapor or whatever (storm almost always does, right?)

My take is to abuse it as much as possible with Voltaic Key effect. It seems logical then to use it alongside Grim Monolith and Mox Opal. If I'm going to use black tutors alongside Voltaic Key, then it should be obvious to play Time Vault. The rest of the list just is kind of obvious, drawing heavy inspiration from the 2nd place EW Japan list. (An interesting deck that I've enjoyed playing and managed to go 9-1 with in league) https://www.eternalcentral.com/asia-vintage-championship-2019-coverage-decklists-and-results/

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

1 Bolas' Citadel
1 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Mystic Forge
1 Time Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
3 Walking Ballista
4 Wishclaw Talisman
4 Manifold Key
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Defense Grid

Sideboard
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Bolas' Citadel
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Dismember

Expedition Map, Chromatic Star/Sphere, Goblin Charbelcher, and less lands could be an even better approach.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

1 Karn, the Great Creator

Cool. Getting Karn with Talisman is another good way to take advantage of it.

last edited by fsecco

The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.

@garbageaggro sometimes you need to get Lotus to net 1 mana 😬

@garbageaggro said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.

I think the second card is in more of a support role--it could be Black Lotus if you need more mana, Defense Grid if they might have a counter, that kind of thing.

It’s a pretty good point. Though, if you didn’t have Vault-Key combo you would want Voltaic Key just to make Wishclaw Talisman more powerful. And then by having Keys and Wishclaw you might as well play Time Vault. I suspect the dual tutor might be more instrumental in setting up Bolas, Karn, or Mystic Forge possibly if Time Vault wasn’t an option.

Or in a Ritual or Belcher version there might be more lines to take with it. Though I still think you play Time Vault.

last edited by desolutionist

This will become a 4-off in Paradoxical Outcome.

PO, Opal, Monolith. The whole thing needs to go. They print something half decent and it goes off the richter.

@desolutionist I don't think this is good because of those cards. It's good on its own. That's just you campaining against them in every post on TMD to "make your voice heard". I knew that line by Ian Duke would be a problem for the format.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco

I don’t mean to cause problem for the format. I just truly believe that this or any future printing that can function through the turbo mana shell is going to be a target for restriction until they correct the underlying issue.

They restricted Karn strictly based on player feedback. The “problem” with that is the players got it wrong. They were losing to Karn and thought Karn was the problem. It wasn’t. Karn was just a powerful win condition enabled by a broken mana base.

They need to start looking at the root causes of these disturbing Turbo comb0 decks and not just take the first thing that jumps out.

last edited by desolutionist
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