@fsecco I don't think so. "Opponent" is defined by opposition to the controller of the capacity on the stack, not the controller of permanent.

Isn't it close to something like Death Wish/ Grim tutor in storm? 3 mana to get a card

last edited by covetousrat

@covetousrat kinda. There are a bunch of really important differences.
You don't lose life (making Bargain, Ad Nauseam, Citadel better); it costs 2B instead of 1BB; you can divide that cost in two turns; it's tinkerable; and it's reusable if you have Chain of Vapor or whatever (storm almost always does, right?)

My take is to abuse it as much as possible with Voltaic Key effect. It seems logical then to use it alongside Grim Monolith and Mox Opal. If I'm going to use black tutors alongside Voltaic Key, then it should be obvious to play Time Vault. The rest of the list just is kind of obvious, drawing heavy inspiration from the 2nd place EW Japan list. (An interesting deck that I've enjoyed playing and managed to go 9-1 with in league) https://www.eternalcentral.com/asia-vintage-championship-2019-coverage-decklists-and-results/

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

1 Bolas' Citadel
1 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Mystic Forge
1 Time Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
3 Walking Ballista
4 Wishclaw Talisman
4 Manifold Key
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Foundry Inspector
4 Defense Grid

Sideboard
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Bolas' Citadel
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Dismember

Expedition Map, Chromatic Star/Sphere, Goblin Charbelcher, and less lands could be an even better approach.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

1 Karn, the Great Creator

Cool. Getting Karn with Talisman is another good way to take advantage of it.

last edited by fsecco

The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.

@garbageaggro sometimes you need to get Lotus to net 1 mana 😬

@garbageaggro said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.

I think the second card is in more of a support role--it could be Black Lotus if you need more mana, Defense Grid if they might have a counter, that kind of thing.

It’s a pretty good point. Though, if you didn’t have Vault-Key combo you would want Voltaic Key just to make Wishclaw Talisman more powerful. And then by having Keys and Wishclaw you might as well play Time Vault. I suspect the dual tutor might be more instrumental in setting up Bolas, Karn, or Mystic Forge possibly if Time Vault wasn’t an option.

Or in a Ritual or Belcher version there might be more lines to take with it. Though I still think you play Time Vault.

last edited by desolutionist

This will become a 4-off in Paradoxical Outcome.

PO, Opal, Monolith. The whole thing needs to go. They print something half decent and it goes off the richter.

@desolutionist I don't think this is good because of those cards. It's good on its own. That's just you campaining against them in every post on TMD to "make your voice heard". I knew that line by Ian Duke would be a problem for the format.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco

I don’t mean to cause problem for the format. I just truly believe that this or any future printing that can function through the turbo mana shell is going to be a target for restriction until they correct the underlying issue.

They restricted Karn strictly based on player feedback. The “problem” with that is the players got it wrong. They were losing to Karn and thought Karn was the problem. It wasn’t. Karn was just a powerful win condition enabled by a broken mana base.

They need to start looking at the root causes of these disturbing Turbo comb0 decks and not just take the first thing that jumps out.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist my point is players as a collective will always get things wrong because they're biased. You may be getting things wrong because you're biased too. The format JUST had major B&R changes, so I have no idea why you are already campaining in every non-B&R related post about this. It's dull and honestly unwanted. I really hope Vintage as a community stops this constant whining we've been having ever since the P9 were released in MTGO. It's truly a pain to follow a format where people act like this.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco

Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.

@mike-noble said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.

Whether or not I agree with anything anyone is saying, I like the sentiment that Survival of the Fittest is too good because Elvish Spirit Guide is unrestricted.

Yeah and Gemstone Caverns too. Way too good.

The real big brain play is getting Energy Flux with this.

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

@mike-noble said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:

Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.

Whether or not I agree with anything anyone is saying, I like the sentiment that Survival of the Fittest is too good because Elvish Spirit Guide is unrestricted.

Yeah and Gemstone Caverns too. Way too good.

Mishra's Workshop is fine though because it only casts artifacts...

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