@garbageaggro said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.
I think the second card is in more of a support role--it could be Black Lotus if you need more mana, Defense Grid if they might have a counter, that kind of thing.
It’s a pretty good point. Though, if you didn’t have Vault-Key combo you would want Voltaic Key just to make Wishclaw Talisman more powerful. And then by having Keys and Wishclaw you might as well play Time Vault. I suspect the dual tutor might be more instrumental in setting up Bolas, Karn, or Mystic Forge possibly if Time Vault wasn’t an option.
Or in a Ritual or Belcher version there might be more lines to take with it. Though I still think you play Time Vault.
PO, Opal, Monolith. The whole thing needs to go. They print something half decent and it goes off the richter.
@desolutionist I don't think this is good because of those cards. It's good on its own. That's just you campaining against them in every post on TMD to "make your voice heard". I knew that line by Ian Duke would be a problem for the format.
I don’t mean to cause problem for the format. I just truly believe that this or any future printing that can function through the turbo mana shell is going to be a target for restriction until they correct the underlying issue.
They restricted Karn strictly based on player feedback. The “problem” with that is the players got it wrong. They were losing to Karn and thought Karn was the problem. It wasn’t. Karn was just a powerful win condition enabled by a broken mana base.
They need to start looking at the root causes of these disturbing Turbo comb0 decks and not just take the first thing that jumps out.
@desolutionist my point is players as a collective will always get things wrong because they're biased. You may be getting things wrong because you're biased too. The format JUST had major B&R changes, so I have no idea why you are already campaining in every non-B&R related post about this. It's dull and honestly unwanted. I really hope Vintage as a community stops this constant whining we've been having ever since the P9 were released in MTGO. It's truly a pain to follow a format where people act like this.
Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.
@mike-noble said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.
Whether or not I agree with anything anyone is saying, I like the sentiment that Survival of the Fittest is too good because Elvish Spirit Guide is unrestricted.
Yeah and Gemstone Caverns too. Way too good.
@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
@mike-noble said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.
Whether or not I agree with anything anyone is saying, I like the sentiment that Survival of the Fittest is too good because Elvish Spirit Guide is unrestricted.
Yeah and Gemstone Caverns too. Way too good.
Mishra's Workshop is fine though because it only casts artifacts...
@full-rod They activate it in their upkeep with the Flux trigger on the stack and then you get it back only to be sad when they don’t pay 2 mana.
Better to get Null Rod. Not only does it shut off the card we are supposed to be discussing after you activate it, but it also shuts off all the off-topic fast mana people are complaining about in this thread. It’s a win-win.
This card seems better in Legacy where tutors are at more of a premium and even if your opponent stops you and gets to activate witch-thingy, you don’t lose the game because they don’t go and grab vintage cards.
I think this card + PO/hurkyl's as an engine seems stronger than anything you will be doing in legacy. I do think it will have an impact in legacy though.
A lot of people here are talking about the ceiling of this card, and what they might do in the better situations where this card is an option. I think I wouldn't want to see this card very often in most decks. 1B + 1 mana that gets affected by artifact removal, Null Rod, Ouphe, etc., and gives a Demonic Tutor (at instant speed during one's turn) for 1 colorless mana to your opponent the turn after you activate it is not a valuable topdeck unless you have a great hand and/or board. Usually I want to have a card that is good when the game isn't going well for me, and good when the game is going well for me. I think the card is cool, but I don't imagine it would be as great as some seem to make it out to be. I would prefer to be wrong here.
I think in the worst case scenario it’s similar to a Sensei’s Divining Top. Top is also effected by Null Rod but still continues to be a Vintage staple. Typically a turn one Top is played with two mana so that you can rearrange the top 3 before your next draw. If you play Wishclaw on turn one with 2 mana, on your next turn you can get whatever card you want for 1 mana. This would be awful in a deck like Xerox that can get Ancestral at best, but in any deck designed to take advantage of its capabilities it could be getting a combo component of an instant kill. Compared to the next best unrestricted tutor options, Dark Petition and Grim Tutor, it’s more upfront cost effective. It’s also significant to TPS that it costs two mana, since those decks are otherwise without a decent turn one, two mana play.
@full-rod if you topdeck this in a topdeck war you probably win the game on the spot. Just like DT.
We spent an hour on this card in our podcast recording last night.
@smmenen I hope that's a signal to order my playset.
I’m definitely excited to try this card on mtgo.
