@vaughnbros said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

Certainly a nice card to have the option to play, but I feel it’s closer to Grafdigger’s cage than a card that will suddenly warp the format.

Grafdigger's Cage is one of the most impactful printings in the entire history of the format. Cage still holds the record for the most Top 8 appearances in the first three months after it's printing ever (at 101), since I've been keeping track since around 2009. The number of cards that have directly and singly shaped the trajectory of the format since 1994 more than Cage may well be zero, or at least single-digits.

Here's what I wrote about Cage in my History of Vintage chapter for 2012:

Dark Ascension introduced a printing so format-altering that it was difficult to fully appreciate. In my set review, I declaimed that “Grafdigger’s Cage is the new sheriff in town, and the degree of its presence in the metagame moving forward will dictate what is possible and what is not.” I then spent more than 2000 words unpacking the strategic implications of a card that was seemingly so simple. Its two simple sentences mask its broad coverage and extensive reach. Most pointedly, I noted the effect that Cage had on Oath of Druids, Dredge, Yawgmoth’s Will, and Tinker, effectively neutering all of the above as long as it was in play. In their joint review for StarCityGames, Mark Hornung and Brian DeMars predicted that “Grafdigger's Cage ultimately will lead us into a metagame shift but one that is more ‘fair.’ ”

Grafdigger’s Cage was metagame defining, but it was not the only significant card for Vintage play. As I wrote in my review, “it is not simply the Cage that punishes the dominant anti-creature strategies of the format. There is a genuine arc towards beats and Fish type strategies in this set. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is one of the best White creatures ever printed. She is Thorn of Amethyst on legs, and heavily disrupts non-creature strategies, especially storm-based strategies, which are brutally punished by such effects.”

Thalia and Grafdigger’s Cage were major new printings for the Vintage format, and not necessarily welcome ones for players who enjoyed the more rollicking play patterns unique to the Vintage experience. These were printings that diminished the razzle-dazzle of an explosive format. Dark Ascension reinforced the trend towards creature strategies, in a forceful way. By the time of the next set review, Grafdigger’s Cage had exactly 101 Top 8 appearances in Vintage Top 8s, making it the most immediately played card I have ever counted.

The word "warp" is obviously the key word in your post, and it can mean different things to different people. But what I mean by "impact" is specifically Top 8 appearances.

It's hard to compare cards like Force of Vigor, Cage, Defeaning Silence, and Leyline of the Void with cards like Lodestone Gole, Jace, Narset, or Karn, as the former are tactical answers while the latter are strategic threats.

But by 'impact,' meaning Top 8 appearances, we can compare them more directly.

Grafdigger's Cage: 101 Top 8 appearances in first three months
Force of Vigor: 60
Narset: 44
Karn: 35
Lavinia: 26

Force of Vigor is by far the most played card from new sets this year in the first three months after it's printing. By that measure, I think Force of Vigor is far more impactful. And I would even say "warping," but that term is more vague and ambiguous, and really depends on what the user means precisely.

If Defeaning Silence is even close to Grafdigger's Cage in terms of influence (and I don't think it will be), it will be astonishingly significant.

I think it's more likely that this card is at the Lavinia/Collector's Ouphe level, maybe a little less.

But I'm also the person who predicted back in May/June that Force of Vigor would be the 'card of the year.'

last edited by Smmenen

Ok, now do Damping Sphere. I think people are always prone to overestimate the effect of hate like this...

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

Ok, now do Damping Sphere. I think people are always prone to overestimate the effect of hate like this...

I think the exact opposite. People tend to underestimate answers or disruptive effects like this, Force of Vigor, Leyline of the Void, Ouphe, etc.

But OK:

Damping Sphere

Stephen: 17
Kevin: 10
Actual: 10

I was in striking distance. Kevin got it on the nose. Our assessment was basically correct.

I'm not going to reveal my exact prediction for Defeaning Silence, since the podcast will be live soon, but suffice to say it is a double digit.

I will say that my prediction is greatly influence by the fact that I was extremely bullish on Force of Vigor and Collector's Ouphe and still dramatically underestimated both.

For comparison:

Collector Ouphe
Stephen: 15
Kevin: 12
Actual: 34

Care to make a top 8 prediction for Defeaning Silence?

last edited by Smmenen

Of course not. I only paid attention to the numbers when they were 0 and it was a card I thought should see play. The actual non-zero numbers have no actual meaning to the typical listener, but I didn't criticize them because it was your show and I was grateful for the content. I assumed it was some game you and Kevin played for entertainment purposes. If you want to take it seriously, I recommend dividing the number of "appearances (number of copies or simply being in a deck?)" by the number of events. And it still tells you nothing about what a card is doing, because if I remember correctly, you are basically talking about a fringe playable card in Brian Kelly's Oath deck. A literal one of in the SB. The lowest possible impact imaginable. It passed the "Brian Kelly will play this card" test.

Believe it or not, this wasn't about you being right but I have been comparing this card to Damping Sphere since it was first printed and people were complaining about it for some time. There is a pervasive belief that hate cards such as this are anti-Vintage and going to have a profound or event warping effect on the format. It overestimates the effect on those cards - Damping Sphere is a key example:

This card, in theory, should stop all the whining about our favorite repeatable lotus land and its call for restriction. . . But it won’t. Mark my words. facepalm.

I love this card so much. This is the most potent hate card we've seen since Grafdiggers' Cage! I don't know that it stops Shops in Vintage exactly, since mana rocks can pretty much cover the spread after turn 2, but it seems absolutely brutal, BRUTAL in Legacy.

I suspect this is going to rock the sideboards forever now.

If this card sees any decent amount of play, it will certainly undermine the case for restricting Mental Misstep 😛

It can't be Misstepped, and makes Misstep wars much more difficult to sustain.

It's clear that this card has lots of Vintage potential, given that it directly affects the three most prevalent strategic approaches in the format, Shops, PO, and Xerox decks, which are spell dense.

But, I'm also not particularly thrilled with cards designed in this manner. Like Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that cards of this type or class may inadvertently have too much influence on the format, and tend to bend the format away from powerful strategies and tactics that make Vintage appealing and fun. Making Vintage "fair" does not necessarily make it better.

Damping Sphere may well live up to it's name, and be a big party pooper.

Replaying to this above

Well said, pretty much sums up my fears about this card. I have the same opinion regarding Grafdigger's Cage. It was ultimately too successful in influencing Vintage and changed it irrevocably.

I don't want to attach names, because it's not about putting players on blast. My point is that I've seen this before and I don't think it's very different. The card is better than Damping Sphere was but has narrow applications and it best used in the SB where you have more control over the matchups and situations in which it can be good. And unlike Collector Ouphe, this card exerts absolutely no pressure on the opponent. I checked MTGGoldfish and both Null Rod and Stony Silence have not cracked the top 50 spells. Ouphe is hanging out at #11 with the Dredge creatures. The pressure is a huge component especially as a top deck and late in the game.

And if anyone was curious, the Damping Sphere thread also had Storm talking about his Knight of the Reliquary Humans deck. ☺

Some things change, others stay the same.

Number of top 8 performances for a sideboard card has to be one of the worst stats I’ve ever seen. I mean, I don’t even know where to start on how irrelevant that number is.

@chubbyrain said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

Of course not. I only paid attention to the numbers when they were 0 and it was a card I thought should see play. The actual non-zero numbers have no actual meaning to the typical listener, but I didn't criticize them because it was your show and I was grateful for the content. I assumed it was some game you and Kevin played for entertainment purposes. If you want to take it seriously, I recommend dividing the number of "appearances (number of copies or simply being in a deck?)" by the number of events.

It's whether a card appears in a deck that makes Top 8. Not the number of copies per top 8.

We used to track number of events, but the number of events that fit the criteria, in the long run, averages out to be pretty even for any slice of time, and any changes are basically static changes for comparison purposes: advent of Challenges, etc.

And it still tells you nothing about what a card is doing, because if I remember correctly, you are basically talking about a fringe playable card in Brian Kelly's Oath deck. A literal one of in the SB. The lowest possible impact imaginable. It passed the "Brian Kelly will play this card" test.

I disagree. There is a big difference between a card that has 80 top 8 appearances, a card that has 30 top 8 appearances and a card that has 12 and a card that has 1. A card that has 80 top 8 appearances is a broadly used format staple, a card that has 30 top 8 appearances is basically a narrowly used Vintage staple, or nearly so. A card that has 12 appearances is a role player. And a card that has just a few appearances is a fringe card. It's not science, but it is helpful.

Believe it or not, this wasn't about you being right but I have been comparing this card to Damping Sphere since it was first printed and people were complaining about it for some time. There is a pervasive belief that hate cards such as this are anti-Vintage and going to have a profound or event warping effect on the format. It overestimates the effect on those cards - Damping Sphere is a key example:

This card, in theory, should stop all the whining about our favorite repeatable lotus land and its call for restriction. . . But it won’t. Mark my words. facepalm.

I love this card so much. This is the most potent hate card we've seen since Grafdiggers' Cage! I don't know that it stops Shops in Vintage exactly, since mana rocks can pretty much cover the spread after turn 2, but it seems absolutely brutal, BRUTAL in Legacy.

I suspect this is going to rock the sideboards forever now.

If this card sees any decent amount of play, it will certainly undermine the case for restricting Mental Misstep 😛

It can't be Misstepped, and makes Misstep wars much more difficult to sustain.

It's clear that this card has lots of Vintage potential, given that it directly affects the three most prevalent strategic approaches in the format, Shops, PO, and Xerox decks, which are spell dense.

But, I'm also not particularly thrilled with cards designed in this manner. Like Grafdigger's Cage, I feel that cards of this type or class may inadvertently have too much influence on the format, and tend to bend the format away from powerful strategies and tactics that make Vintage appealing and fun. Making Vintage "fair" does not necessarily make it better.

Damping Sphere may well live up to it's name, and be a big party pooper.

Replaying to this above

Well said, pretty much sums up my fears about this card. I have the same opinion regarding Grafdigger's Cage. It was ultimately too successful in influencing Vintage and changed it irrevocably.

I don't want to attach names, because it's not about putting players on blast. My point is that I've seen this before and I don't think it's very different. The card is better than Damping Sphere was but has narrow applications and it best used in the SB where you have more control over the matchups and situations in which it can be good. And unlike Collector Ouphe, this card exerts absolutely no pressure on the opponent. I checked MTGGoldfish and both Null Rod and Stony Silence have not cracked the top 50 spells. Ouphe is hanging out at #11 with the Dredge creatures. The pressure is a huge component especially as a top deck and late in the game.

And if anyone was curious, the Damping Sphere thread also had Storm talking about his Knight of the Reliquary Humans deck. ☺

Some things change, others stay the same.

Was this a TMD post?

There are lots of problems with Damping Sphere. The main one is finding a good home for it. Defeaning Silence has obvious, high level applications (WEldrazi, Survival, etc.)

last edited by Smmenen

@vaughnbros said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

Number of top 8 performances for a sideboard card has to be one of the worst stats I’ve ever seen. I mean, I don’t even know where to start on how irrelevant that number is.

Leyline of the Void in 2008 was the second most played card in the entirety of Vintage, and second only to Force of Will. And almost all of it's play was in sideboards.

To say that's irrellevant as a statistic is just dumb. It's hugely significant in terms of what it says about the composition and structureof the metagame and the value of the tactic in that metagame.

Moreover, it's not always clear what's a "sideboard" card and what's not. Is Force of Vigor a sideboard card? Is Collector's Ouphe? Pyroblast?

Force of Vigor is almost evenly split between maindeck and sideboards. What matters is whether a card is good or not. That is, whether it sees play or not.

last edited by Smmenen

Edit: My intent isn't to make this into a thread about SMIP. Like most people in the Vintage community, I am looking forward to the content.

My view on Deafening Silence is that it is a role-player. It is limited in its application due to its two sideness against many decks and it's lack of impact as a draw. It's not a hatebear and that reduces the threat potential of the decks that would run it. What makes Thalia, Lavinia, Narset, Teferi, and similar cards great is they aren't just the hate effect. I think this card is a perfectly reasonable anti-storm card. I think people are going to try it in more matchups and will be disappointed. That might not be reflected in top 8's but we'll see in the long term viability of the card (similar to Damping Sphere).

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain

I disagree with that. I think it will be better off the bat, and more enduring than Damping Sphere. Damping Sphere only had 10 top 8 appearances, and tapered off significantly since.

I think Defeaning Silence will be better than that.

The main reasons are:

  1. It only costs 1 mana, and is basically a silver bullet first turn play against PO, and not bad against Xerox either. It significantly slows Xerox strategies.

More broadly, I think this is good against big blue decks that players like you gravitate towards.

  1. It easily fits into Survival and White Eldrazi, as well as the various Fastbond decks emergent. Both Survival and White Eldrazi, in the three weeks since the restriction, have consistently Top 8ed Vintage Challenges.

Those two facts put together mean that this will see more play, in my estimation, than Damping Sphere. I don't know if it will be significantly or modestly more, but I am confident it will be more.

Damping Sphere was pricier, easier to remove, and much more difficult to break symmetry on. This is easy to break symmetry on. That also makes it more promising than Sphere.

last edited by Smmenen

I wish Deafening Silence existed during the Noble Fish days.

@mike-noble said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

I wish Deafening Silence existed during the Noble Fish days.

I wish this card existed 15 years ago.

@ChubbyRain I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen's point about this being a different animal than Damping Sphere and I actually think the correct number of this card to run maindeck will end up being 4. I don't think many decks will do this, but I do think the RIGHT one will. This card is fundamentally different than other cards we've seen printed over the last couple years precisely because it costs 1 mana. This allows decks that actively do NOT want to run moxen (i.e some sort of Ouphe Prison list) to have relevant turn 1 plays. When it comes down to it, Vintage is a format of making relevant turn 1 plays that curve out into a relevant turn 2, turn 3 and then hopefully the establishing of some sort of dominance that cannot be overcome. "Fair" hatebear decks have teetered on the edge of playability for a long time and a card like this is just another potential brick in the foundation of a monster. I certainly am trying to brew one as we speak.

-Storm

Stephen, there is an important concept when interpreting numbers: Correlation is not causation. What this phrase requires is that you add the context and assumptions to all numbers when attempting to infer things from them.

Top 8 numbers on sideboard cards are highly irrelevant because they are very often not the reason the deck is performing well. This is a classic correlated by not caused reasoning.

Especially when we look at Dredge hate, where nearly every deck has 4-10 hate pieces. You are guaranteed to find something like 32+ Dredge hate cards in every random top 8.

On top of that, we have the top 8 cut point bias. You needed approximately 3 wins to reach a top 8 at NE events for a long time. That means you could often completely tank the Dredge matchup (usually only around 5% of the meta) and still make it to top 8. You chances of dodging Dredge in those 3 critical matchups was .95^3 = .86. That’s on average 86% of those top 8s that didn’t even win a match against a Dredge opponent making their choice of Leyline/Cage/Crypt irrelevant outside of marginal effects on other MUs.

To bring this back to this card, this card could get some top 8s. That won’t suddenly make this card better or more impactful. We can read it and realize it does not hurt near 50% of the metagame. People can put it in their Flusterstorm/MB trap/Pyroblast slots, but let’s not pretend that these other cards you are playing it over aren’t also very powerful.

Storm, this has the same limitations that Cage has that made Cage unplayable in the MD of hate near decks. I’m not sure what your plan is to overcome the lack of pressure on your opponents life total.

Yeah, I hate comparisons in card evaluations. For the record, I was comparing the reactions. Look at how similar...

  • Comparisons to Cage
  • Would have kept Karn from being restricted (compared to Misstep and Workshop). Did someone mention Forge too?
  • Overpowered/Anti-Vintage
last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain

All deck and card choices are relative to choosing another deck or card so card comparisons are incredibly important.

Anyone that thinks that a top 8 performance in 7 round events is a solid metric for card/deck playability should know about the time I made top 8 of a 65 player event with 4 Shardless Agent, 4 Daze, and 0 ways to manipulate the top card(s) of my library in my maindeck. That deck was trash despite this result and the win I got at a 20 person Mox Pearl event.

last edited by Mike Noble

@mike-noble said in [ELD] Deafening Silence:

Anyone that thinks that a top 8 performance in 7 round events is a solid metric for card/deck playability should know about the time I made top 8 of a 65 player event with 4 Shardless Agent, 4 Daze, and 0 ways to manipulate the top card(s) of my library in my maindeck. That deck was trash despite this result and the win I got at a 20 person Mox Pearl event.

That reminds me a deck that I saw. When broodbraid elf was released, a person played a 4 BBE, lands and singletons.

He won the tourney.

last edited by nsammael

@vaughnbros Thank you for making my point. Comparisons are useful within a narrow context such as talking about cards in a 75 or when evaluating functionally equivalent cards. Yet people expand this and ignore context because they think comparisons are “incredibly important ” or something. It causes threads to become more about the card being compared to the spoiled card than the spoiled card itself.

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain

Your complaints about what and how we discuss are a much bigger derailment than discussing this card in the context of other Vintage cards and Vintage data as now we aren’t even discussing magic or Vintage at all.

You are welcome to ignore posts that you don’t think are on topic/relevant. I do it all the time.

last edited by vaughnbros
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