Is Thought Scour better in the 4 Underworld Breach decks than Preordain? I've found that early Underworld Breach seems anemic without enough fuel (both mana and cards in the graveyard).

@yangtime I think the card selection of preordain is just too strong compared to thought scour. You want stuff in your GY, but that's what brain freeze is for. Rather than build a GY over time, you just brain freeze yourself for 12+ and go to town off a breach. Several games get won on chaining things like moxen into preordain into gush into brain freeze for 20ish and swinging with 3-4x phoenix with FoW in hand (or time walk if you have the mana).

Honestly i am still trying to figure out the best version of breach, but tbh i think it wants to run Intuition. It is insanely powerful with breach and makes it easy to set up kills in one card.

@garbageaggro The one thing I've found about breach is that it's vulnerable to all the grave hate that's already around due to dredge. People just board in the grave hate, and it's very tough sledding from there. Unlike dredge, though, you also have to fight through the counterspells to resolve breach, whereas dredge just dodges the stack altogether to win. Also artifact hate and storm hate like thalia, null rod, deafening silence, and ouphe are ALL effective at stopping the breach/lotus/brainfreeze combo. Makes winning with it hard when just about ANY disruptive card hits the combo on some angle.

Sometimes you can just punch through a turn 1 win like PO, but it's much more vulnerable to hate and less resilient. I'll be severely disappointed if the card ends up being a 1-of value engine instead of a 4-of combo. That's using the card as it was intended, and that's just too fair to be great.

I think that is one of the reasons i like intuition, you can shed a lot of the graveyard reliant cards and move into a different plan (tinker, mentor, thassa + consult) and just have enough to keep the main plan available (like 1 copy each of freeze, led [lotus you have anyway], and maybe a couple breach cause it is a fine value card, and like maybe 1 sevinne's reclamation).

If you're already cutting the combo down to the minimum why play not play the xerox style of the deck that has already had decent success? Cutting dead combo pieces like brainfreeze and adding other dead combo pieces like thassa's oracle doesn't seem like an improvement, just an equal change.

I mean that is also a different plan. That would also work in the context i am talking about, but i would play Intuition and Sevinne's Reclamation in that xerox list I think. That is what I am advocating for, not the particular other/main plan.

That makes a lot more sense.

Yeah, I think sevinne's is a solid card to play, especially if you've also got a few 3 mana walkers in the deck. Intuition also seems pretty reasonable reasonable.

Intuition + Breach is just so good, it basically is a one card combo with sufficient mana. I mean so is Demonic tutor but you need to have black then and you are limited to 1.

@garbageaggro I don't think the choke point is mana, but cards in yard, given than a resolved intuition is probably getting lotus/LED

So generally from nothing the line is: intuition -> 3x breach, then cast breach cast intuition for lotus/led, brainfreeze, x. I think you need 4 cards at the start to win? The mana cost is 2U + 2U + 1R.

There are probably many one card win conditions at 5UUR. Tezzeret, for example.

Still seems like Intuition is a bit expensive.

intuition for breach can be broken up, so you end of turn 2U and then untap and play breach and whatever comes from breach. 2U and then 3UR is a very different cost from 5UUR. additionally, 3x breach is probably not the best intuition; piles involving sevinne's reclamation may often be better, as they let you have access to a lotus/LED in the process, though take 1 more mana get the breach into play.

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