@rbartlet

Consult on a stick, Divining Witch, is also a Wizard so you can play a 1-card combo that is uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. The biggest issue of getting blown out by random removal spell is gone by playing this card instead of Maniac.

@vaughnbros notably, this card and divining witch cannot be cast off the same cavern, unlike labman

I love how in basically every other format this is worse than Augur of Bolas.

@blindtherapy
I think the better 1 card combo with this is Hermit Druid, despite not having cavern you get therapy.

last edited by John Cox

@protoaddict I was thinking it could replace lab maniac in the modern neoform deck but i actually think due to the way that deck works, which is drawing the last cards with grizelbrand, it actually can't. hmm. i think this will exist as a fringe legacy/modern card to a similar degree as labman, unless there's some way to turn it on that im missing.

Regarding Doomsday, this card really changes the math of doomsday stacks - I like the Laboratory Maniac more because you don't have to play laboratory maniac as the last card in your game, so you could cast it earlier and still win. I have actually won games by casting Laboratory Maniac, then using Time Walk to fuel the Doomsday stack.

This card drastically changes the math to Doomsday, so there's a lot of analysis to determine if this card is better than Laboratory Maniac.

This card is better than Lab Man, but Doomsday really just wants 4 Gush.

@desolutionist said in Tassa's oracle:

This card is better than Lab Man, but Doomsday really just wants 4 Gush.

This literally will never happen again, and rightfully so.

@desolutionist said in Tassa's oracle:

This card is better than Lab Man, but Doomsday really just wants 4 Gush.

@13nova said in Tassa's oracle:

@desolutionist said in Tassa's oracle:

This card is better than Lab Man, but Doomsday really just wants 4 Gush.

This literally will never happen again, and rightfully so.

Do you two think that doomsday will ever be a contender again without 4 gush?

last edited by John Cox

Removal proofing is big for Doomsday as well. You don’t need to stack your pile to answer Swords and other removal.

Stifle/trickbind will become the new removal spell of choice - and it's blue. We're in for some rough times.

@thewhitedragon69 those are pretty bad removal spells for anything other than this. most people don't build their 75 to beat doomsday

Yeah, why rely on Stifle and friends when you can use your existing counterspell suite to stop the Doomsday itself?

@maximumcdawg Because letting them resolve doomsday and trickbinding the oracle makes them lose the game instead of finding another doomsday and trying to combo again.

But nobody will play trickbind, so...

A few years ago there were people doing unpowered U/R delver at eternal weekend for the budget prize. theres an unpowered Doomsday pile now with this card.

--Top--
Gush
careful study
oracle
Lotus petal
unearth
--Win--

Total cost is one blue and requires 2 islands. Think this is neat and hermit druid is still better.

@john-cox

Yes I’ve played it a lot recently. I usually have gone 5-2 with it in the challenges. It’s great against decks like DPS and Dredge but not good against BUG due to lack of card advantage to keep up with whatever the opponent is doing. It needs 4 Gush.

Otherwise this style of deck is just dead since Hasbro just wants it to be a planeswalker game.

Rip real magic

Honestly I don’t see myself playing vintage for my own pleasure ever again unless there are drastic changes made. There are a lot more interesting games out there that deserve some love instead of this crap. Everything that once enticed me to play is now gone.

last edited by Guest

@desolutionist while WotC making the game too planeswalker-centric is a thing I will happily complain about, the viability of vintage doomsday is probably also far from what modern card design is or should be about.

@blindtherapy I think making the game PW-centric is what WotC wants to do, because that's the flavor of the game at its core - planeswalkers traveling planes to have magic duels (you being a PW).

I'm actually working on a doomsday/hermit druid/belcher/PO+tendrils hybrid, which is really doing well. It dodges all the hate that would hit any one strategy. Grave hate? Play doomsday. Counterspells? Play hermit (with therapies). Tax effects? Play Goblin charbelcher. Draw the PO? Chain off and tendrils. The mismatch of cards really doesn't matter. You got mana to cast belcher? Go off with belcher. Play a hermit? You'll mill all the doomsday and belcher chaff out of the way. Got a doomsday? Your pile ignores the belcher/hermit cards. The deck basically just plays whatever broken line it draws/mulls into. It runs 4x FoW + 2 therapies and defense grids in the SB. It has a maindeck tinker and can SB in BSC/inkwell as yet another kill plan. It can even mull to 3 and win turn 2 - land, ritual, doomsday/land, mox, hermit/vault, crypt, belcher (with any mana draw and some luck on hitting 20 non lands). Fun deck, and all possible thanks to Thassa being a 1-card win package.

It’s not even the Planeswalkers as much as it is needing to relearn the format every 3 months and/or having to sit still while the opponent takes a 20 minute PO turn. WotC doesn’t know how to make cards anymore.

I played old school yesterday and had a blast. I lost to Armageddon and couldn’t have been more content.

I observed people playing Dredge vs. PO and I guess I just don’t see the draw to that kind of format. When I originally discovered Vintage it was cool to see Stax vs. Control Slaver. Now it’s PO vs. Dredge. Where’s the incentive to be part of that?

last edited by Guest

@desolutionist The format has just gotten faster and more broken. That's the consequence of adding 1000 new cards between standard, commander, and other supplemental printings to the format each year. If you print accidentally broken only 0.5% of the time, that's 5 new busted cards in the format every year. Decks max out on the best broken (like manaless dredge with 4x free spells, dredgers, bazaars, vengevines, hollow ones, etc) or play restricted highlander.dec

But there are foils to it. Decks have become so fast and streamlined, that cards like null rod, thalia, or blood moon can just wreck an opponent. If you build with hate in mind and leverage cards that mesh with the hate, you can win a lot of more grindy games.

The format looks vastly different than years past, but it's still fun. If you are of the OS mentality, you likely enjoy knowing games will last 20 minutes and get to turn 10 before someone wins. That's not vintage anymore, though many games CAN be that slow.

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